True Crime Conversations

00:02 It's a cold July night in Melbourne in 2013 and an elderly couple hear a woman screaming. 00:09 It's nearing 10pm and the sounds are coming from the home next door. 00:14 An older woman lives there. Her daughter moved in three years ago after an ugly divorce to an abusive man. She has two grown-up sons. 00:23 Quickly, Nina raises the alarm and police are called. When officers arrive, they find Teresa Mancuso in her parents' garage. She's been murdered, in a crime they'll later describe to the public as vicious, cold-blooded. 00:39 As her sons are alerted and quickly rushed to the scene, there's no doubt in their mind who did it. 00:45 But it'll be two excruciatingly long years before they see their dad arrested. 00:56 I'm Gemma Buff and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 01:07 A warning to listeners, what happened to Teresa is horrific listening, but it's important to describe so you can understand the depravity of this crime, the violence, the rage. 01:19 Teresa was stabbed at least 16 times in the chest and abdomen and suffered blunt force trauma to the head. 01:27 She was 49 years old. Her two boys were grown and she'd been in the process of rebuilding her life after divorce. It was her chance to be happy after spending more than two decades in an abusive marriage. 01:41 But her ex made that impossible. He openly threatened to kill her. He slut-shamed her. He followed her and her boyfriend, abused her, frightened her, called her over and over again. 01:54 Fernando Paulino made her life a living hell. 01:59 When she died, the former couple were just weeks away from a court date to finalise the division of their assets, something he claimed he'd never let happen. 02:09 While sentencing him to 30 years in prison, Justice Andrew Bell accused the 55-year-old of family violence of the most extreme kind. 02:18 He described the murder he committed as a crime of jealousy, hatred and rage by a man against a woman who just wanted to be equal, independent and free, or more simply, just wanted to be. 02:31 It's a powerful sentencing document to read all these years later in the current climate we still live in of extreme violence against women at the hands of current or former partners. 02:42 Justice Bell is damning and angry and unforgiving in his condemnation. 02:48 He talks about Paulino depriving his own sons of a mother, of the impressive young men he witnessed in court, who have undergone a rite of passage far more difficult than most. 03:01 Daniel, aged 27, and Luke, aged 25 at the time of the court proceedings, both gave evidence in the trial. 03:09 In 2026, they are strong advocates against men's violence against women. They speak openly and passionately about family violence prevention. 03:19 And it's all thanks to their neighbour. Well, their mum's neighbour. The woman who first raised the alarm. A Greek grandmother who adopted Daniel and Luke as her own after they moved into the house their mum died in. 03:33 Who fed them and loved them and showed them a kindness that has seen the boys create a social media movement turned business called Yaya Next Door. 03:43 Daniel joins us now to talk family violence, grief, the power of kindness and his next venture, fatherhood. 03:57 Daniel, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. I want to start with your mum. Can you tell us about her? Who was she and what was she passionate about in life? 04:06 Well, she was just simply to put it as... What's the right word here? Heartless soul, where she always did everything for her kids. So she would literally do everything and anything for us, for Luke and I and her family. 04:23 She would always, you know, if it was a cold winter morning, I remember going to school, she would have our socks in front of the heater so they're nice and warm for when we... where to put on our shoes and socks and ready to go. You know, she'd just supposedly whip up quattalites, which are schnitzels in Italian, and she'd rip them up just for an after school snack. She would, you know, pick us up at any time of the day or night. If we were going out, she'd always want us to be getting home safe. But yeah, she was just a really beautiful soul. 04:55 who would do everything and anything for her friends and family. And I'm just lucky enough that I obviously got to experience quite a significant time with her because I know other people in that circumstances might not get to have experienced that much time. But I try and look at the positives and try and just think, well, I'm just blessed that I was able to have that time with her. 05:19 It is hard, not going to lie, but especially now more than ever when I'm about to be a dad and achieving these other big milestones in my life. So having that and obviously getting married last year were quite really powerful times where I really wanted her to be there, but I know this should be there in spirit. 05:40 I want listeners to understand a little bit about more behind the scenes because from the outside as a child, you had a nuclear-looking family, mum, dad, two kids. But what was happening behind the scenes that maybe the kids at school didn't know about? 05:54 I just wish I had a bit more confidence and being open and honest with my friends. Like, don't get me wrong, there were probably the times where my friends knew some things or whether they heard my parents fighting. 06:08 just by yelling and stuff. But I just wish that I kind of was a bit more open and honest with them. 06:14 Because I feel like you're also, given that age, you're kind of ashamed in retrospective, where you feel like you want to be pictured as this perfect loving family. 06:26 So I wish I could just, you know, go back to my younger self and just tell him, you know, it's okay to speak up to friends and family and have that support because for us, having that support around us, meant everything. 06:40 And I have my friends today, I treat them like my own family, like I see them as my family. And I'm just grateful that I have such a great support network around me, who have helped me through my hardest times. And you know, even when my mum passed away, like, one of them would always be at the house every night or sleeping over just to make us feel more comfortable or try and distract us from obviously the hard times at that point in time. 07:12 It sounds like that kind of yelling and violence was a bit of an undercurrent throughout your whole childhood. 07:20 In hindsight, witnessing that kind of stuff as a kid, what are the lasting impacts it had on how you grew into a man, how you kind of formed relationships when that's the relationship that you were watching? 07:35 Yeah, look, it was quite hard for me at the start. I feel like to be in a relationship, I kind of was a bit scared because I wanted it to be a perfect relationship because I knew like I'd seen my parents fighting. So for me growing up, I was always a bit scared in leading into a relationship or committing, I should say. 07:56 But in saying that, I feel like I am, again, turning that negative into a positive where I've got the blueprint of a man that I don't want to be and what I want to be, especially being a father and having a family now. I feel like it's, again, utilising, I guess, what and what not to do is kind of how I'm approaching this now. 08:18 Your parents separated in 2010, so by then you and your brother were late teens, early 20s. You were men. 08:27 Did you welcome that separation? Was that something that you'd been hoping would happen? 08:30 well at the start obviously being younger we were obviously hoping that they didn't break up but it wasn't until a bit more in our teenage years and uh where we accepted it and wanted it to happen because we were just sick and tired of them fighting and at the end of the day we actually just wanted them to both be happy and we felt like they got to a point where they didn't seem that. So it wasn't until our later life where we wanted them to separate and we felt finally relieved to some degree where they were broken up. 09:03 But then obviously things continued to escalate behind the scenes. And yeah, it's just obviously sad that obviously it had to be the way it ended up. But yeah, it was one of those times where you, You wanted it to happen because you just really got sick and tired of them arguing and living in a household where it felt like that. 09:24 So you were hopeful that by leaving your mum would be able to move on and have a happy life and that's just not what ended up happening? 09:33 No, that's right. 09:34 Your mum did everything right in terms of the protections offered to her by the police and everything. She got an ABO. She was telling the police what happened. When you look back, what else could she have done really to have helped herself? It feels like she did everything in the system that's there for her. 09:53 Correct. She literally did everything that you kind of follow. She was lodging when... 09:59 circumstances would come, whether that's phone calls or confronting her face to face, going to the police station, filing reports and all that kind of stuff that goes with that. But obviously it wasn't enough and sadly obviously ended the way it did. 10:19 I just don't know how we as a society can change. I feel like personally there needs to be harsher penalties so people can really understand if they do these actions, this is the repercussions. 10:34 Because I feel like she did everything in her power to do the right thing, to move on with her life, to live a happier life and to start fresh with even like a new job and everything like that. But then obviously things obviously didn't turn that way. 10:48 Did you ever think, though, that your mum's life would be in danger, that it would go that far? 10:52 Look, to be honest, there were threats made during their relationship. I'm not going to lie about that. But I didn't think ever in my wildest dreams that this would result to the way it did, where she sadly passed away and now my father's in prison. So, yeah, I never in my wildest dreams figured that that would end up to be that way. But obviously, yeah, here we are today obviously talking about this matter. 11:19 Well, it was three years after their separation that your mum lost her life. 11:25 How do you remember finding out about that news and where were you? 11:30 Yeah, I remember like it was yesterday. 11:34 had a dinner at my nunna's house where we obviously were living with the next door story. But we had a dinner there. 11:45 Sorry, we had a dinner at my auntie's house that got moved there. And then we were there and then we came back home. 11:52 And I found it quite strange because I got home and all the lights were on in the house. The TV was on, blasting loud. And I just thought, this is really strange because my dad would normally have, you know, the lights on, sorry, off and have maybe some lights on to make it feel like someone's home. Never have the TV on, especially blasting that loud. And then I just clicked in my mind where we quickly were very fast on it, where we were contacting My brother went out after that because I just got home and went to have a shower and get ready for bed. 12:32 But then I made the calls and then it was a domino effect of my brother would then call my mum and then I would try and call my dad. 12:39 Then we'd try and call both our aunties on my mum's side and my dad's side and then obviously nothing was heard from either and it was really strange that either of our parents weren't answering the phone. Normally, my mum would answer straight away, especially seeing us call and saying with my dad, he had his phone clipped to his belt, even he was a tradie. So it was just really unusual that none of them answered or within a specific time frame of not calling us back. And then it wasn't until our beautiful neighbour next door here, heard yelling, which then she raised awareness and called my auntie because she had her number. 13:17 So she called her and then my uncle went to the house and that's when obviously they found her. 13:25 And then everything I followed after that and then I remember driving to a reservoir because I'm like, oh, I'll just go and see if she's okay and see if she was there. And then as I was getting closer to the house, I got a phone call saying, Daniel, don't go to the house. Don't go to the house. Come to my auntie's. And then I just saw all these cop cars at the front. And then I thought the worst. And then it wasn't until we walked in there and we heard the news. And I just remember... 13:55 Obviously just breaking down and kind of just everything else after that was a bit of a blur. It didn't feel real, it was like a dream. 14:05 And then throughout that whole night, I think we were there at the cop station till 6 a.m. that whole night, having obviously discussions on our movements and not to say getting lectured like we were the people that did it, but they were just trying to obviously put together a story um so it was very tiring and long process and then they had to take our clothes and that we're wearing too and yeah then we just went back to to my aunties and then i remember we had family and friends visit and i was just so out of it i hadn't slept for like nearly two days and yeah it was just a just a very emotional and draining experience thank you for telling us that daniel i know it's hard to relive that 14:50 Just logistics wise, you were living at your dad's house at the time. So did you and then you moved in with into your mother's. 14:57 Living with our father, Luke and I. 15:01 One for me, it was just more for work purposes. And then Luke, obviously, we were both living here and he was doing schooling or finishing school. 15:12 or uni, I can't remember now, it was like a lifetime ago. 15:16 And we were more so living here, not because we wanted to, it was more also to keep an eye on our dad. We felt like it was a bit safer to have that extra eye on him. Whereas in an ideal way, we would have moved in with our mum in a heartbeat. 15:32 But we just felt like it was probably the wiser thing to do to keep an eye on him. And also, I felt like if we had moved in with our mum, he probably would have got more upset and angry, which is sad to say. But we just try to make it with what the best possible outcome is for all parties at the end of the day. 15:51 Yeah, that's obviously how our living arrangements were at the time. And then obviously once my mum passed away, we were living with my auntie and they just had bought a house at the time. So lucky the house was big enough to fit us in. 16:04 I mean, it wasn't ideal. Like I had to share a room with my brother in our early 20s, which we'd never shared a room in our life because we were lucky enough to have our own bedroom. 16:13 um but yeah we're there for two years and then we built the courage up to to move back our mum sadly passed away which was a really hard decision but i'm kind of grateful we did because obviously then we wouldn't have this beautiful relationship with our neighbor um and obviously wouldn't be here today talking to you um on this podcast so it was very hard but you know we didn't move into the for a while and we didn't even walk into the garage for six months when we were living there. 16:47 At the time, it was just abandoned. We just left it there with all the boxes. 16:52 But then again, lucky we had our friends that would come and constantly visit or stay over. And we had an annual tradition of every Thursday, we had friends coming over to play cards, to watch the footy, have some food or coffees and playing table tennis and other games and basketball. 17:12 So we kind of felt a bit safer because, again, it was hard for us to move in because our father wasn't arrested for quite a few years prior to that. So we were kind of living in constant fear if he'd come back. And then we had at times telling us to come and visit here, to come back to live with him. 17:34 which was really hard because straight away when mum passed away we knew whodunit. 17:40 But we also had to respect what the police did and just say, look, keep an open mind. 17:47 what you think the case may be, but you kind of just got to be that way, given that they've experienced this before. So we were just quite blunt with our responses. And it was very, that was probably one of the hardest times too, during that time where he wasn't arrested and not knowing if we were next or he would come to try and confront us. 18:10 So yeah, it was really hard. But again, we were just lucky that we had Beautiful neighbour next door and obviously I have amazing friends around. 18:19 Up next, Daniel shares how he and his brother endured the court case that followed their mum's murder and what it was like confronting their dad. 18:28 It was an excruciating wait for you two years from like until he was arrested. I'm assuming the police were just trying to gather evidence, but that doesn't make it any easier for you. And then you go through the court process and there isn't a sentencing until 2017. So that's another few years. How did you find that whole process of court and sentencing and you gave evidence once that was all finally over? Yeah. 18:53 yeah well uh it was definitely one of the hardest prior to obviously hearing the news about my mum passing away was probably the hardest thing i've ever had to do in my life um i don't wish it upon anybody um having to experience being in a court with your dad kind of confronting and being open and eyes in front of strangers and and reporters hearing our story and our family upbringing um and then obviously having him shouting out like he's innocent and stuff like that so it was really really hard and challenging and It just felt like it was a lifetime because it did go on for a very long time. 19:31 It was one of the longer processes of being in that court with that court case. So it did go on for a very long time and it just sucks because they had to gain enough evidence to kind of build up this case and obviously make it a strong case. So then hopefully he doesn't have a shorter sentence. Everyone knew It was him. 19:57 But yeah, it's a very hard process. And I still remember to this day, I'm speaking to Tony Hardwood, who was the detective with our case, and I needed a break and I needed to get away. So I went away in 2015 to Europe with my friends. 20:16 And I said at the time, like, are you sure this is okay for me to go? Like, I know I really need to go just for my mental clarity and health. 20:25 But I'm also mindful that could he be arrested or do I need to be here for all this kind of extra stuff that could arise? 20:33 And he said, no, no, that's fine. You go. 20:36 you'll be all fine, nothing should kind of happen while you're away. And then I still remember we were on the end of our Contiki trip in Greece and I get flooded with messages on my phone saying, are you okay? And had all these calls and messages and I'm thinking like, shit, what's happened? Like as my nonna passed away, I just thought of something completely off off topic or off the whole perspective of what was going on. And then it wasn't until I spoke to some family and then saw all the news articles and stuff where it said my dad had been arrested. 21:14 So it was crazy. And then I'm like, well, would you like me to fly back home? And given everything that happened, and I'm not really familiar with this whole process. And then they said, no, finish your trip off, enjoy your time off. And when you get back, we'll work it all out. 21:32 Could you enjoy the rest of your trip after hearing something like that, knowing your brother was back home as well? 21:36 It was very hard, but as bad as it sounds, it was a relief because I knew he was arrested. So it's like it was, in some perspective, at least a lead in the right direction, a step in the right direction, I should say. 21:52 So it was hard, but I feel like too... 21:57 It was amazing to hear because it was just like, okay, we've finally gotten somewhere with everything. And now like he's arrested. I can come back comfortable knowing that he's not at home. 22:10 I come and see, try and see me or speak to me. 22:14 So, yeah, it was hard, but it also was kind of like a bit of as bad as it sounds. We were kind of celebrating. I remember the night we heard the boys brought a shot and just had a toast to my mum and to celebrate, obviously, what had happened. And then they're just, again, lucky I had them around to make it all worth my while and felt safe and better. 22:37 It's so interesting hearing you say that story because, you know, your early 20s, you are on Contiki doing shots. That's what you're supposed to be doing. And yet you're also dealing with something so incredibly heavy that no one should have to deal with. It's like that. How do you keep living your life? But then, you know, you're still having to go to court and give evidence and do all of this really, really heavy stuff. Were you given any support during that process? Did the courts give you support, the police, anything like that? 23:06 Yeah, well, I don't know the exact term now, but we did get some government funding for, like, counselling for other mental health things, I think, for, like, you know, gym membership or other stuff that we could do that would help kind of alleviate that, which was great, like, did help. But then... 23:27 Nothing lasts forever. It did have a cutoff with those like you had, I think it was, I can't remember off the top of my head, but like maybe, I think from memory, 10 or 20 counselling. 23:40 things that you were allocated individually obviously so there was obviously that but I just feel like it's all good at the start but you kind of now more than ever this is when the time you really need it most personally especially like I said getting married and having a family like this is the time where you feel like you're It doesn't hit you until now when you're really grieving. For me, I wish my mum would be here to even lend a hand when I'm going to need it now more than ever or being able to see the birth of my child or seeing me getting married. 24:19 Because I know that she'd be so proud and be one of those annoying mums with her phone out showing baby photos. 24:26 marriage photos on the wedding day. So just knowing that she's not physically here, it's really hard. And so I wish like this is where I feel like now more than ever, this is where the funding should be allocate or at least a creative process where we think maybe we allocate stuff at the start, middle and end or not say end but towards later in life because I feel like this is more needed now more than ever. 24:53 Well, it makes sense because you're kind of entering that stage of life that your mum was more in where she was having kids and that became her kind of her focus in life. It makes sense that your grief would kind of come back up at this point. I want to bring Yaya in here because as you mentioned, she was the neighbour of your mum, where your mum was living. Can you tell us a bit about that? Because she'd been the neighbour for years. She knew your mum. She knew you from when you were kids. She's kind of been a constant. 25:20 So she's been a part of our life. I feel like people do know this if they really have paid attention, but she's been a part of our life the whole time. She's seen Me and my brother grow up, my family grow up because she lived next door to my nonna, where they had all the kids and their kids went to the same school. So they would walk together to school and they had a relationship with them. So throughout her whole life, she's always been a presence in our life. And it wasn't until obviously, which is sad to say, but wasn't until obviously when mum passed away is when our friendship or, I guess, love grew for each other even more. 25:58 And, you know, we're constantly always, you know, touching base with her seeing how she's doing or visiting her or even, you know, doing the chores with whether that's cutting grass or picking them up from the pokies or dropping them off or getting some grocery shops delivered or some freebies that we might get that I know that they'll love. I always look out for them and I always will because They've been a big presence in my life ever since that day. And she always wants us to be known as her Yaya. 26:30 She even calls my wife Kukla, which is beautiful in Greek. And she treats her like her own daughter. And she's very proud that she's now a great Yaya. And she's so excited to see the baby. So I'm just... So happy that she's a part of my life because sadly I've lost now both my grandparents just due to old age and whether that's health effects. But I'm just grateful that I still have Yian Papua in my life and treat them like my own and be able to hopefully still have a long-term relationship with them or at least see my kids grow up with them in the picture. 27:04 For those that haven't seen your Instagram, and don't know what we're talking about. Tell me how it started. How did she help you in the biggest grief moment of your life? 27:16 yeah i still remember to this day actually it was i was just playing basketball in the backyard um so she would have heard me making some noise and i just hear this little lady's voice daniel i've got something for you um and she come to the fence which is the iconic passover uh that you see for most of our videos And she just handed a big tin, which her mum gifted her when she travelled here overseas. 27:45 And she cooked about, I think it was nine drumsticks, chicken drumsticks, and under that was rice. 27:52 And the steam was still coming off on the top of it. And she just gifted and said, this is for you and Luke, so you enjoy. And I was just filming these acts of kindness on my personal Instagram account. 28:06 And then I got so many comments from just family and friends where they're like, oh my God, this is so, so cute. You're so lucky. 28:14 And then, I don't know, I just had the thought of creating my own account, just given again, I'm being in the creative space. I'm like, it won't take me long to do that. So I just created an account, which was at the time titled The Girl Next Door. Then I created the page and then I had it up for a little while. 28:33 We only had a few hundred followers and then it wasn't until Martha from Maths, from the origin of Maths, who at the time, which is bad to say, but I didn't know of her because I hadn't watched the show, but it wasn't until she reshared a story or reshared one of our posts on her story and then it just blew up overnight. And from a couple of hundred followers, we blew up to, I think it was... 28:56 6,000. And then over that time, it just built more and more traction where we had the age article from Tom Cowley, which again was another big I guess milestone in our journey where that was one of the most read articles of the year, from the age. And also Tom won a Quill Award, which was recognised as one of the best stories from that year. And then also our photo got recognised as one of the top 50 photos of the year. 29:26 So, and then from there was then printed, then went into media where we had the project with Tommy Little and Then it just blew up again and then after that it just was a domino effect of other amazing collaborations or partnerships with media or having our beloved cookbook out. 29:42 That's insane, Daniel, how that grew and blew up. I can definitely see like it kind of goes to that instinctual Australian quality of like the neighbour and the kindness. And I do think over recent years we've kind of lost that neighbourly kindness value. Do you think that's why it resonated so much with people? 30:02 I just feel like everyone resonates, especially back when I was a little kid, that people would live in the street growing up. And I feel like it's a lost art now. Everyone's glued to technology. 30:16 And I feel like people don't go outdoors anymore or outside. Maybe they do just for sporting clubs and functions. 30:25 You know, you don't really see kids playing in the court anymore or playing random games that they make up. They just see the playing on technology like PlayStation. 30:36 or on their iPads watching movies or YouTube. 30:39 So I feel like it's just a lost form. And I feel like we've lost that sense of community around us, which is sad because I feel like now more than ever as a society, we need it. And, you know, I can almost guarantee you most of the people might not know one of their neighbours either beside them or across the road. 31:01 So I really want to try and challenge that and change that narrative where know you've got to get to know your neighbors and and as the slogan we use is love thy neighbor so i really want people to try and bring that back because i feel like now more than ever like said it's it's really important that we need to know our neighbors because if anything were to go wrong um you know they are the first people that could come to come to you in a time of crisis or need um like i know for instance when my mom or parents would fight or even You know, she would flee to my neighbour's house across the street or down the road just to feel safe for that brief moment until things hopefully calmed down. 31:43 Or if we as kids growing up felt uncomfortable, that we would go to our friend's house in the court and just get out of the house or my mum would do the same and then we'd flee that. 31:56 For us growing up our whole life, we always had that sense of community around us, which we're fortunate to have. And I hope to kind of bring that back with my family and kids growing up. Just that's why we're trying to promote that. And the beauty, I guess, with the next door and our story behind her is to i feel like um i love the fact that we don't show her identity so it can showcase that any anyone could be this beautiful lady whether it's young and old male female greek or italian um doesn't really matter anyone can be this selfless soul um so it's kind of been a blessing that we've respected it wishes not to show her identity um to showcase that you know anyone could take that on 32:40 Story aside, when it comes back to just this gesture from your neighbour in a time of need, what did that mean for you and your brother? How did it help you during that time? 32:53 For us, we just felt somewhat more safe and having like a mother figure or grandmother figure next door to us. So for us, it was everything, I guess, because we just felt like we had someone eyes and ears next door looking after us. 33:11 um so if things were to go wrong or if the time of crisis were to arise for good or bad that we had heard we're knowing that we had her next door to help and vice versa with with her especially being in her uh older older um age that if she needed us she could we could return the favor in our in our way 33:30 You also hear time and time again when something tragic happens in someone's life, often they lose friends because people just don't know how to show up for them anymore, whereas this is showing the polar opposite where your neighbour really stepped up, she became everything. So it's kind of promoting that, you know, be a year, not everyone else that kind of disappears. Did you find that in your world that some people kind of drifted apart and drifted away? Yeah. 34:00 To some degree, yes. Whether that is, yeah, some people, I feel like some, like, I don't know, as two of you get older, you probably, your network gets a lot smaller, not in a bad way, but you just, you're living a constant busy life and, you know, your network gets closer and smaller and you kind of try and make more time for those that really mean a lot to you or that have been there through the highs and the lows of your life. So, Yeah, I feel like Yaa's always going to be a special part of my life and my wife's life and my kid's life. 34:32 So I'm just blessed that I get to have an extra grandparent in my life because obviously we don't talk to our dad's side. 34:40 We didn't really have a great relationship with our grandparents on his side. So in that retrospect, we kind of had that second grandparents that we never really got to have properly. 34:53 More of my conversation with Daniel after the break. 34:58 You turned Yia Next Door into a cookbook. 35:02 How did that come about? Was that just from people wanting recipes or how did it go from a social media page to a cookbook? 35:09 Yeah, so it was during the COVID era. 35:14 So it was kind of hard because we were promised this deal and And then obviously things, the world turns crazy or pear-shaped with everything going on with the unknowing. And then it wasn't, I feel like in my perspective, it was fake that it wasn't meant to be. And then we were just lucky enough that legends at pan macmillan um sent me a random message on instagram wanting us the scent wanting to send us some stuff uh that was relatable to what we're doing um and then it wasn't until i just thought you know stuff and i'm just gonna shoot for the stars here and see what could come about of this and we just thought why not try and propose a greek cookbook or a cookbook at that time where we could hopefully bring these recipes to life so people can, you know, experience their family recipes or your Yaa's recipes because I feel like it's a lost art where Your grandparents don't write them down at all, backed up in the memory bank. 36:19 And then, sadly enough, then it gets to a point where it's too late to get those ingredients or recipes down because sadly they'll forget or have dementia and then you miss out on that opportunity and you're kind of just thinking, well, this might go with that. 36:37 And I'm in the same boat. I wish I obviously got some of my nonna's recipes and my mum's recipes, but... 36:44 I just feel like it was a beautiful way to tribute to all amazing New Yars out there to be able to have that recipe with their loved ones and bringing back that nostalgic feel. And we wanted to obviously give back to the community. So for us, we wanted to do a community call out where it wasn't just Yaya's recipes, it was actually every other recipe from them to put forward in the book. So everyone felt a part of it across Australia. I just wanted to thank our community for their love and support over the journey. 37:16 And also thank Yaya and her family for allowing us to capture these beautiful moments. And now they're so fortunate enough that they can have Yaya's recipes for life in their property. 37:29 Can you tell us about some of your favourite Yaya recipes that she put over the fence to you during that time? 37:35 Yeah, well, as I was saying earlier, definitely one of the highlights, and it's just a very simple dish, but it just brings me back to our, I guess, journey. So the chicken and rice was one that will always stick close to my heart, just purely for the fact it was the first recipe she handed over to us. I also love, you can't go past a good spanakopita, so I love that. 37:57 And then I'm going to be biased here and pay tribute to one of my mum's recipes, but it was a rakalang with jam. So it was actually one of the last dishes that my mum unfortunately cooked for me before she passed away. So I was fortunate enough that I was able to remember and asking family friends who were really quite good in the kitchen to kind of try and think of the ingredients that were used in her dish. So they're just some that I really loved. And for me, like, I'm no master chef. 38:29 I'm very basic in the kitchen. I'm quite quick and easy and healthy. 38:34 So to think that I have my own cookbook, it blows my mind still. But just goes to show how much the power of community has supported us. 38:43 And we're here today, obviously, sharing these beautiful meals with everybody now. 38:48 And I'm just fortunate that I was able to have that opportunity because it could have gone either way, especially during that COVID era. 38:54 It's so powerful hearing stories like yours and having this beautiful kind of cookbook to talk about and all the good you and your brother have done. Obviously, there's the horrible story at the centre of it. 39:05 Has that taken a toll on you, having to... 39:08 retell this story and live in this space for the past eight years while building Yaya Next Door? 39:14 Yeah, look, I'd be alive if I said it wasn't. I mean, it does take a toll on me. It takes a toll on me. You have your waves and moments when that is the case. But in a positive way, I just try and see it as like it's my way of having a therapeutic session with a counsellor without having to pay, I guess. But I just wanted to raise awareness, and support women who have sadly lost their lives or going through domestic violence and families too, most importantly, to try and hopefully be a voice, especially as a young man, which is not common, especially in this space. 39:53 And I just want, hopefully, whether the younger generation are looking back and seeing me speak up, that hopefully helps them to do the same if they're in that same situation. 40:05 I see it in a good and bad way. 40:08 But yeah, I'd be lying if I didn't say it didn't take a toll on me. But like I said, I have my good days and my bad days, just like anyone, whether that's with work or life in general. 40:19 You and your brother are now advocates in the domestic violence prevention space. Can you tell us a bit about the organisations you've chosen to affiliate yourselves with? 40:29 Yeah, so we've tried to work with like minded organisations that we feel like really, that we really admire, because they're doing amazing work. And we're no professionals in this space. We're just going through lived experiences and kind of learning on the fly, because like I said, I'm a graphic designer, not in psychology or domestic violence and all that stuff. 40:54 I just want to continue to work with like-minded organisations like Our Watch, Safe Steps, and I'm probably forgetting so many more, but we've collaborated with all these amazing brands and organisations in order to try and continue to drive that message across and try and do it in a creative way, whether that's through food collaborations like Messina or our cookbook where we've, you know, percentage of our proceeds are going to 41:21 charities in that space um I just want to continue doing that and then just making an impact in any way I can what do you want kids that are living in situations like you were to know from hearing about your story what what do you wish you knew what do you wish they know I just want them to know that you're not alone like 41:44 You've got support network around you all the time. You just need to be confident, open and honest with your emotions and how you're feeling. 41:53 So I wish I could go back to my younger self and say, speak up or speak up to your friends or to your parents at the time. Because I always question if I had maybe spoken earlier in the early years that maybe we wouldn't be here today. So I just want the younger generation to know like, you know, no one's perfect, whether that's through, you know, mental health or wellbeing or parents fighting through domestic violence. 42:22 Everyone's going through something or even health problems in general. So I just want people to know that life is sadly not perfect, but it's how you persevere and continue to try and be the best person you can be and treat others how you'd like to be treated. 42:37 A lot of the stories that we hear about violent men is that they had violence in their childhoods, or personally a lot of the people I've interviewed have told me that, that there was violence in their childhoods. You and your brother have broken that pattern. Are there any tangible things that you can advise to young boys, to men, to help break that cycle more often? 43:02 If we can just show up and be the best version of yourself, and like I was just saying before, treating others how you want to be treated, I feel like the world would be a lot better place. 43:16 If you see something, call it out or at least pull someone aside and just say, look, I don't think that's right, or speak up and help them because people are often scared to speak up or pull someone aside to tell them, hey, that's not right, and pull your socks up. 43:34 and do some do some good in the world because unfortunately the world's a crazy place and it's only it seems to be getting more and more crazier so for me personally i just feel like they need to just realize simply just you want to live in a world where you want to treat others how you want to be treated and and think about like roles were reversed how would you feel or if you had a daughter or a son or your that's your mum how would that make you feel so feel like people just need to stop and think before they speak and before their actions. 44:04 you said yourself that there aren't a lot of male voices in this space. Have you felt the power of being a male role model in this area? 44:14 I do, but I do feel like there is, which is great to see, it's getting more and more better in this space. Like I'm wearing a Carlton Respects hat who I've worked with for a number of years now. We've just recently celebrated 10 years of Carlton Respects. So, knowing that as a football club, especially the AFL team, they've really taken it upon themselves to really, I guess, shine bright in that space where they really wanted to turn into something very powerful. 44:46 So they dedicate every year around to that game where they're really highlighting the importance and the work that they're doing and also going to kids' schools and educating the younger generations to promote not what to do and to showcase, you know, how to live in a better society and culturally too. 45:08 I just feel like it's great to see that there are more men out there, like even Tarang, who I consider a brother from another mother, who sadly lost his sister Nikki to domestic violence. But I do feel like it's getting more and more common when men are speaking up. I just wish obviously more men would take the courage to speak up and not feel like they're perceived as a specific persona of painting this picture on them. So I just want to continue to hopefully be, I guess, a voice in this space and trying to help others be inspired in that. 45:44 For me, it was even incredible to see you speaking about domestic violence prevention and awareness on a football podcast. Like that is incredible progress in my eyes, because I don't think we would have seen something like that 10 years ago. A football podcast with a predominantly male audience talking about violence against women and children. 46:04 Like that alone I think should be celebrated. 46:07 Thank you. Yeah, that's what I mean by the power. Like people don't realise, I think people do realise, but sports are very powerful things powerful thing in life. So trying to use it for good, I think it's a really smart way of educating people, especially given the larger audience are men. Well, not let's say now, because I feel like there's a lot more women's sports, which is amazing to see. But, you know, it was predominantly a men's sport. So for speaking on that, I think it's really important. 46:37 And it just goes to show how we've changed over the last 10 years as a society, and hopefully continue to grow that moving forward. 46:44 You mentioned a few times that you're about to become a father. That's definitely a new adventure, a new chapter you're about to step into. 46:52 What kind of father are you hoping to be? 46:54 I know it sounds cliche. I'm just trying to be the best father. best father I can be as in best human person too. So I just want, I guess I'm emulating my mum in that by wanting my son and then hopefully the second that whatever that may be, or whenever that may be, I should say, just to treat them as a friend. I want them to feel comfortable to come to me through the good times and the bad and not feel scared to come and talk to me in a time of need. 47:27 So I just want to have that open, honest relationship with my son and kids and I want them to feel safe and loved and know that we're always here for them no matter what. 47:41 pregnancy and preparing to become a dad, is it making you reflect on everything you've been through and your childhood and your mum in a different light? 47:52 Yeah, definitely. I feel like it has shaped me, I guess, to try and be the best person to show up every day for my wife and my family. 48:03 But in saying that too, it just gives me the blueprint of how I want to I guess, going with life, with my family and to make them feel safe and comfortable. I'll be lying if I would say I'm not stressed and scared because I am, but I feel like that's normal. But I'm really excited for the next chapter and excited to see what life will hold moving forward. I know it's going to be a bit of a roller coaster. I know it's not going to be easy. 48:34 But like I said, life's not easy or perfect, but I'm just going to ride it and enjoy the moment. 48:41 And what's next for your next door? Are you going to have a bit of paternity leave there or what's your plans for the movement? 48:49 I definitely need to take some time off, I think. I think I'd also get in trouble from the wife if I don't. 48:58 No, look, I do want to take some time off because I do want to be present, especially during that early stages. I think it's going to probably be the most important time of need, especially not just looking after my kid, but obviously helping my wife too, given that, you know, she won't be able to probably move around as frequently after giving birth. So just trying to help her as much as I can and just enjoy the little moments I'm really looking forward to. 49:29 So I've definitely, yeah, will be taking some time off. In saying that I know, unfortunately, I need to still pay the bills because she'll be taking off Some time because I work for myself. Unfortunately, I don't get the leave. 49:42 So if I don't work, I won't get paid. But I'll definitely be taking a few weeks off to enjoy that moment with them. 49:48 Lastly, Daniel, what do you think your mum would think of everything you and your brother have built in her legacy? 49:55 I feel like she'd be very, very proud. 50:00 And I don't know, I just feel like there are moments throughout specific occasions where I feel like her presence is right there. Whether that's, I even get some times when we're taking photos at these occasions or events, I can see these like lights that shouldn't be there. And I feel like that's her being there, very happy and proud and showcasing to all her friends above. Look at my son. 50:27 look what he's doing and kind of really being one of those mums that, which you take for granted where you're like, mum, stop embarrassing me. So I feel like she'd be very, very proud, smiling from ear to ear and obviously celebrating with all my other loved ones above through all the milestones that we've achieved thus far and continue to do so. 50:48 Thank you so much, Daniel, for sharing your mum with us and sharing you here with us. Thanks for joining us. 50:54 No worries. Thank you for having me. 50:57 Thank you to Daniel for joining us on this episode. You can find links to Yaya Next Door in our show notes. If you're experiencing family and domestic violence, Safe Steps provides immediate and confidential assistance. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.