Crime World Podcast

00:00 Perder peso, recuperá-lo. Perder peso, recuperá-lo. A culpa não é sua. O corpo pode resistir à perda de peso e fatores fora do seu controle podem causar resistência biológica. 00:14 Fale com o seu médico e saiba mais em obesidadomadoença.pt Uma iniciativa Lili Portugal. 00:25 Este é um caso, que ainda poderia ser resolvido por witnesses que estão começando, por conversar com pessoas, por conversar com outros criminosos. A maioria das pessoas que criaram esse medo naquela época estão agora. O status de status como criminoso não será lá para afetar qualquer potência de witnesses ou algo assim. Ele esperava que sua consciência eventualmente ajudassem a dizer, olha, eu vi isso, eu vi quem fez isso, eu vi quem fez isso, eu vi quem fez isso, eu vi quem fez isso. 00:56 Eu conheço eles. 00:57 O 80s tinha o General, o 90s tinha o John Gilligan, e no 90s era o reino de Martin Marlowe Hyland. Ele governou sobre a cena de droga, trabalhando o caminho para o ranks, tomando a oportunidade de entrar quando outros deram por o caminho. 01:13 He grew increasingly reckless and paranoid and therefore became a liability. He had to go. 01:20 And the circumstances of his death just added to his legacy. That an innocent young man doing an honest day's work lost his life is just terrible. 01:30 During the making of Caught in the Crossfire, I sat down with retired detective Brian Sherry to discuss the Anthony Campbell and Martin Marlow Highland murder investigations. What you heard throughout the series were snippets of that interview. As a bonus, we're releasing the full interview so you can hear Brian's full and unabridged account of his time working on the case. 01:54 Okay, my name is Brian Sherry and I'm a retired detective inspector. I retired in July 2007, and at that particular time, just before my retirement, I was based in Blanchistown, and that area was covering Finglas and Cabra and Blanchistown. 02:15 And I joined the Guards back in 1971, and I had 36 years of service at that time. 02:23 I decided to retire in 2007, but I had made my mind up in 2006. 02:31 And shortly after this murder, like, I mean, that made my mind up. 02:38 It's one of those things. It stayed with you. It just got you. 02:43 Most of the murders I had investigated up to that were well-known criminals and everything else like that. Okay, Marlow was a well-known criminal, but Joan Campbell wasn't. 02:52 Yeah. 02:54 Quando I walked into the house that morning, I saw him on the floor with a hole in his head. And he was lying just under the radiator. That's how the plumber couldn't see him. 03:04 Look, people think that guards, that investigators, that journalists... 03:12 Quite hard-nosed. Hard-nosed. 03:15 And we've seen it all and it's just... Well I was and I probably still am if I go to the right scene or something like that. I mean I have seen some horrendous scenes and I've been in horrendous situations and things like that and it never affected me. 03:30 This one did. 03:30 This one did, yeah. And you know, the thing is that when I started talking to Christine, I mean, how many murders are there? Each one of them has family and all the trauma and the generational trauma that goes with it. And, you know, in the media, you're covering this murder, you're covering that murder, all the rest of it. But that one stayed with me. 03:54 And it was all those elements you describe. I didn't obviously have the... Nightmare of walking in and seeing that. There was something about his face, the innocence, the smiling child about to become a man. Yeah. You know, and the idea that it was a mother's only child and she lost her only child in such senseless. 04:18 It was really cruel. 04:23 And she was a lovely woman. 04:24 Yeah. 04:25 e a sua mãe e a sua família, a Bacta, Cristine's parents. Eles eram muito bonita, e a salta da terra. Era horrendosa. 04:38 E era uma que todos nós queríamos, todos todos os outros. E nós colocamos os braços e os braços. E eu conheço isso. Eu conheço isso, porque eu tinha um grande grupo em Blanchester. 04:53 e o Finglas, e a câmera. 04:56 A morte aconteceu no Finglas, mas nós mudamos para Blanchestown para carregar a investigação, porque nós tínhamos um quarto lá. Quando eu fui lá em 2002, nós tínhamos um pequeno, pequeno, onde tinha um filho fazendo files e dentro de um ano, nós foram mortos. E eles me lembraram, porque o problema começou quando eu saíram. E então, o que eu fiz foi, eu tive uma sala de sala no endo e nós colocamos em uma sala completamente de uma sala de investigação. 05:36 manned by two people. And I had to take them off my own people. So we were actually down two detectives. But it was... And we fought hard to get them replaced and everything else like that. We couldn't, I mean, but... 05:49 Você podia chegar em, o que nós usamos chamar a book she's aides, e eles usaram, e eles usaram. E eles eram grandes lads e grandes girls, em fairness, nós conseguimos fazer isso. Mas, comparado a Limerick, nós havíamos sido slaughtered, e eu tinha sido slaughtered, e eu tinha sido slaughtered, desde 2002, até 2007, nós havíamos sido slaughtered, com murders, attempted murders, shootings, tudo que você podia chamar, eu tinha sido thrown atos. e nós era apenas um pequeno, pequeno, em Blanchetown, em Inglês, onde Limerick estava ficando todos. 06:28 Didn't it happen so quick then? Oh. At the beginning of those 2000s, do you suppose you had... It was like an explosion. Yeah. And you had that element of... Look, there was much more money. You know, you had all those elements that went with it. The economy was booming. We were in full employment. Exactly. You had the arrival of cocaine, which changed everything. 06:50 No one got buses. Everyone got taxis. 06:52 Yeah. Yeah. 06:54 And, you know, the cocaine... It really hit the streets, like with the IT crowd and everyone else, like, I mean, you know, partying and everything else like that. And it became the fashionable thing to have, like, I mean, everyone was going around with a little bit of it. And, you know, it was fashionable for a party, if you were having a party, that you had a little bit of cocaine to spread around, like, for people and that. It was crazy. 07:18 It played right into the hands of the criminals, of course. 07:21 Yeah, and I suppose the likes of Marlowe Hyland was in prime position there. He was so perfectly placed to become what he kind of became. 07:32 So, when did you become... Let's start with him, Marlowe. 07:36 Marlowe, yeah. 07:37 Or do we need to go... Back to PJ Judge. 07:40 Go back further, like I mean. 07:43 Will you tell me your memories of, you know, when he came into your... Yeah, I can remember PJ Judge in Finglas. 07:53 He was known as the Psycho. 07:55 And himself and Marlow were very, very close. PJ Judge was actually going out with a sister of Marlow's. 08:05 And that's how close they were. And PJ Judge, like I mean, was sort of the real leader at that particular time. He was the main person who was involved in all the drugs and all of that type of thing. And he was involved in murders as well, like, at that time. 08:20 Marlowe was sort of his second in command. 08:25 And they grew up together more or less as criminals. And eventually, like I mean... 08:34 PJ George was murdered. That was, I think, around 1996. He was murdered in a car park up above there, the bottom of the hill there in Fingas. 08:44 And rumor had it, Marlow was behind it, Marlow set it up, and that he arranged for him to be hit by other gangs. 08:56 And he was shot dead. And then Marlow was the kingpin then. 09:01 And that was from 1996 on. 09:05 E então começou a ser muito maior. Um monte de atenção começou a partir de ele. Ele tinha tentacles que estavam movendo. Você fala de John Gillian. 09:19 Marlowe era de similar scope. Ambition? Ambition era um bom para ele. Porque... 09:27 He was determined that he was going to become the number one criminal in Ireland at that particular time. And he probably got up there very, very high in his heyday. But then as the years rolled on, it's like everything else. And I always had it like, I mean, the more you're involved in crime, there's always someone there who wants to pull you down. 09:49 And the number one thing that started happening was a number of his shipments started being... caught, found and fellas arrested with them and some of his major associates were being arrested in possession of large consignments of drugs and of course when that started happening people thought okay we have a rat in our camp but in reality I believe what it was was it was surveillance that was being carried out on his crew by the guards listening in as well and all that sort of stuff that was going on. 10:32 But they weren't really aware of that type of sophistication by the guards at that particular time. 10:40 So the obvious thing was that there was a rat in the camp and eventually the crew believed that it was Martin himself who was ratting out these guys because he felt that they were trying to usurp his power. 10:55 Right. 10:56 Because they were getting powerful as well. 10:58 That's called paranoia when everyone is turning on each other. 11:01 That's real paranoia. 11:03 You saw it then subsequently with Eamon Dunn. 11:08 Eamon Dunn was your class example of that type of paranoia. 11:14 And he was the kingpin then after Marlow. And like that, but he started using his own product. E ele era totalmente paranoia e ele era responsável por 16, 17 murders. Você sabe, nós vimos isso tudo antes. É tudo novo. Mas esses eram os tipos de coisas que nós estavam lidando com, say, 96, talvez antes de 96. Obviamente antes de 96, eu teria visto muita coisa. 11:47 I would go back like when I was in the Central Detective Unit, which is now the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation. 11:54 I went in there in 1978. 11:57 And in my time in there, like, I mean, we were concentrating on the Duns and Martin Cattle and the Cattle Gang and all of those type of people, like, I mean, the criminals. 12:10 And, you know, from, you know, like, you got to know these people. You got to know their... Tudo bem sobre eles, você está sentindo eles, você está sentindo os seus olhos, praticamente. 12:26 Ele pode ter sido um bom successo contra eles também, às vezes. 12:29 Não é interessante porque o que você pointedia sobre Marlowe's organisation e depois o Don Dunn's organisation, eu acho que o mesmo acontece hoje. Você put a pressão de pressão e eles implodem. É verdade. Tem um desmantling, um desmantling, um desmantling de polícia. Eles têm um target, mas a maioria do tempo, a maioria do tempo, 12:52 implodes implodes or sort of destroys itself waiting in the wings yeah and it's it's strange like I mean but they're getting younger now much younger they are and much more lethal like I mean you know you've always remember go back to which of the Dunns was it Larry Larry Dunn I remember well when he was Talking outside the court, like, I mean, you think we were mad, wait till you see what's coming down the road. And he was absolutely correct in what he was saying, like, because, well, we knew the Duns, like, I mean, the Duns were sort of... 13:30 High-class criminals, you know, they consider themselves top of the table. And Christie and Henry and Larry and all of them, you know, they were more sort of gentlemen criminals. They regarded themselves as that, even though they weren't. 13:48 Yeah. 13:48 But that's the way they regarded themselves. They again, like everything else, they started dabbling in drugs and... 13:58 a lot of the family has come to that. 14:00 There was less of them, I don't mean as a family, the Duns, but in general criminals and sort of, you know, high-ranking criminals. 14:07 There was less to feed off before cocaine. 14:10 Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, well, in the Duns' time, it was cannabis and heroin. 14:18 And they really introduced heroin into the Dublin scene. That's where they flooded the Dublin scene with heroin back in the early 80s, 90s. 14:28 And I suppose there was a finite amount of customers they could ever get from heroin. Whereas with cocaine, there was the customers plus there was all these users at the weekend. 14:41 Yes. And in that particular time, there was very few people who could afford cocaine. 14:48 Você podia afundar heroin, mas você não podia afundar focaine, se você era muito velhinho. E era mais o upper class, como as pessoas, como as pessoas, I won't go into anything other than that for a save. But yeah, there was high class people who were involved in the use of cocaine back in those days. 15:10 So sort of 2002 to 2006, stroke seven, when you retired, you're in the... 15:20 a district where Marlowe is growing and like we say Marlowe when we only refer to them by their first name it shows their fame doesn't it in gangland terms and his name wasn't Marlowe it was Martin Martin exactly so was he constantly in the ether 15:37 He was constantly to the forefront in our view as demands. I mean, we were looking at him like, I mean, it's like everything else. Unfortunately, in the K District, what we're referring to is Blanchester and Finglas and Cabral, like, I mean, Marlowe was one person He, where he was, probably the biggest person, but there were so many others that were drawing us away from him at the time, like, I mean, who were just as evil, probably more evil in my role, I mean, and more engaged in madness and everything else like that, particularly in the Fingdas area. 16:19 Yeah. We were dealing with an awful lot of criminals there, and we would, with several murders in that area at that time. 16:27 Do you know, it's interesting, actually, if you look at what, when Marlowe got that paranoid and some of the, his own people he took out was a guy, Coddington and Ray, I don't know if you remember them, they were in Mead. That's right. But the knock-on effect of their murders. 16:41 Yes. 16:42 Led to the Price Maguire organisation forming in Drogheda, Loud, growing and obviously all that went on. 16:49 And then you see what happened there. Mm-hmm. I mean, everything has a sort of a knock-on reality that comes afterwards. Like, I mean, you had Marlowe, and then you had Eamon Dunn, and now you had Fishy Fitzgerald and all of these guys. Like, I mean, and now you have... 17:05 Ok. A fleshy gang and... A fleshy gang and all of that, like, I mean, who are now there, like, I mean, and in between that, you'd aim in Daly and... Yeah. So, like, I mean, you know, when you consider it and think about it, and then up in Blanchistown, like, I mean, you had the Gouldings, you had... You know, the remnants of the M50 crew, as we called it. So, you know, we were dealing with all of those, and constantly they were attempting to kill each other all the time. It was just mayhem. 17:37 And like... You're working in it seven days a week at the time, you said 14 hour days, just crazy stuff. You know, having had time to look back on it and consider it, have you any thoughts on why people choose that life? 17:54 Good question. I think from the very young age, I wanted to be a guard. And I don't know why really, because we used to play on... 18:05 out on the street in Druncondo there like Maine and you'd see a guard coming up Botanic Avenue on a bike and you'd run. 18:13 And you would have done absolutely nothing wrong with the sight of a uniform in those days. You would literally run up and hide in case he thought you had done something. That's how crazy it was. And I always got a feeling about that. I said, what a wonderful... 18:33 como você diz, ele tinha muito poder. Um air. Um air about him, exatamente. E eu sempre falava, eu gostava de ir em, mas quando eu fiz joinha em 1971, foi completamente diferente. 18:48 I mean, time tinha mudado, obviamente. 18:54 They were moving on, and I joined, and I went... My first station was Kilmainham, and you had a lot of deprivation in that area, like, I mean, in Fatima Mansions and Dolphin House, like, before they were rejuvenated and that, like, I mean, Go Square, which then went into St. Michael's Estate, the lower part of Valley Fair. It was a huge district. But in that area, like, I mean, you had a lot of... 19:23 People who weren't well off and had a lot of silly crime, more aggression than anything else, because they didn't know how to deal with the poverty. You had a lot of violence in the houses, in the homes as well, and that was very hard at times. You go up and be dealing with a man who was after nearly half killing his wife like him in and you know and you'd be taking him out and then she'd appear in the court the next morning and say ah he's not too bad when he's sober and you know and I know, I mean, but that was her life and that was the times that they lived in. 20:07 And so you could sort of understand these things. If he wasn't there and he wasn't there and if you did nothing, you know, that was the other side of it. You know, you could have a woman that would be prepared to put up with that type of thing. 20:21 Yeah. Which is sad. 20:25 Perder peso, recuperá-lo. Perder peso, recuperá-lo. A culpa não é sua. O corpo pode resistir à perda de peso e fatores fora do seu controle podem causar resistência biológica. Fale com o seu médico e saiba mais em obesidadomadoença.pt Uma iniciativa Lili Portugal. 20:49 And I suppose a lot of those sort of earlier criminals stole and stuff like that because they were hungry. 20:56 Yeah, absolutely. 20:58 You know, I mean, a lot of them stole to feed the family. And, you know, we all knew that. And sure, we often caught the younger lads, like I mean, stealing and that, like I mean. 21:12 In those days, you used to give them a clip in the ear, and it was acceptable. It's not acceptable now, and it certainly wouldn't be acceptable, but in those particular days, it was. And you'd send them home, and you probably wouldn't take the stuff off to me, because you knew where it was going. How would you say, the word discretion comes into it, big time. And he'd stop a man on the road, like, I mean, driving a car and his tax might be out three months or something like that. 21:43 And he'd tell you, look, I'm after... I was out of work there for the last six months. I'm after getting a job on a site. 21:51 And if you give me a chance, I'll produce the tax to you in another couple of weeks if you give me a chance. You give him a chance. 21:57 Yeah. And of course he would. The man would turn up, like, I mean, nine times every time the man would turn up with tax on his car. 22:03 You know, and... E aí, você faz isso porque você não queria criar um problema. 22:08 O que mudou, então, em décadas, eu acho, até que nós tínhamos que... O que mudou? 22:11 Eu me lembro, eu me lembro, eu me lembro, quando eu me lembro, os times eram muito simples, eu me lembro, eu me lembro, eu me lembro de um crime, mas não, mas não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, But what I did notice, I mean, you know, with the upsurge of crime in the IRA starting up the north, what you did see was a lot of the more senior lands who were on your unit e vão entrar em vários trabalhos, como especial branch, forensics, finger prints, ballistics, todos esses trabalhos precisavam mais de manpower e eles foram ensinados e eles foram ensinados em esses trabalhos, que então gradualmente reduzido a força da unidade e reduzido, Eu me lembro de todos os me estarem em um carro como um estudante, ou não como um estudante, mas como 23:17 um jovem com dois anos de experiência. 23:20 Eu estava, eu estava, eu estava observando em um carro, e a segunda coisa, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu estava, eu So you went, like I mean, in a very quick period of time, you went from a relatively simple type of lifestyle to a very dangerous type of lifestyle, like I mean, where you had armed robberies going on practically all over the country, big fellas driving into towns and taking over the town, robbing the bank and then driving out of town, like I mean, and this type of carry-on, like I 24:08 mean, all done by INLA and, you know, and then you had to set up, like I mean, of the... 24:13 The Guard Armed, well, they weren't an armed response unit, they were pre, what do you call it, emergency response unit. There was another unit then that was set up with the special branch, and they were an armed unit that was going around the whole country at the time, you know, trying to catch these people. 24:36 But they were the type of days, and then you, as I say, you had the introduction of the Duns then in the early 70s, E os crimes que eles foram cometendo, eles foram cometendo no crime. Eles foram cometendo carros, até Glen Cree e lugares assim, onde eles foram morrer. Onde eles foram morrer? Sim, sim. O que eles foram morrer. O que eles foram morrer? Sim. 25:00 O que eles foram morrer? Sim. O que eles foram morrer? Sim. O que eles foram morrer? Sim. 25:08 E eles começaram a utilizar pessoas em Dolphin House, Fatima Mansions e Rialto. 25:16 Eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. 25:17 Eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. Eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. Eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. E eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. E eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. E eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. E eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. E eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. E eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. E eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. E eles eram pessoas que tinham nada. 25:37 Everything just changed so quickly then. Everything, absolutely. But you were there and you could see it evolving. And the Guards had to evolve with that. For years, the Guarda Chicana had been very slow to move. I remember back in the early 80s, the Guards, we had a meeting in the Guarda Club in Arlington Street. And the detectives, like, we, you know, we wanted to be armed, like, because we were going out and we were carrying out searches and armed, where we could meet up with armed people. 26:14 We were going on patrols where we could meet up with armed people. And we were going searches, like, all of these type of things. So, like, our lives were in danger. There's no point in saying they weren't. But I remember a certain, I won't mention his name, but he was a certain chief superintendent who came up to the meeting and he said, we didn't have anything to worry about because the criminals knew the difference between special branch and ordinary detectives. And even though you were in paint shows, they knew the difference. 26:46 Like, I mean, that was the type of mentality that you had in the job at the time, you know, and higher echolons. So, like, I mean, it took a while, but then you got, like, I mean, I worked with some great people down through the years, like, I mean, and I worked with a number of the commissioners, like, I mean, and that, like, I mean, in my, you know, as to say, as I worked along, and they were great people and very, very, very good, you know, detectives and that sort of stuff, like, I mean, so I had a great experience in life, like, I mean, working with these people. 27:22 So while things were changing a lot, I suppose, when we hit the 2000 and into the era of Marlowe. Yes. 27:30 They're just changing unrecognizably, I presume. 27:33 Completely. You were really into the cocaine business at that particular time. Like, I mean, large consignments of cocaine were flooding Ireland at that particular time. 27:47 And... 27:51 Practically every district in Dublin set up a local drug unit, a small little drug unit. 27:59 And we manned them with young, enthusiastic guards, both male and female. And they were fantastic. They did terrific work. 28:13 seguindo o traíso de onde as drogas foram vindo, e onde as drogas foram vindo, e onde as drogas foram vindo, e onde as drogas foram vindo, e onde as drogas foram vindo, e onde as drogas foram vindo. Então, o trabalho foi feito, mas sempre, sempre, o que as drogas foram vindo, as drogas foram vindo. 28:34 fisicamente touching them. Of course not, yeah. So, I mean, there are other people who did the work for them on that side, you know, because... 28:41 And Marlow, I suppose, benefited from all those other things you said were going on. There was other murders and the district was very busy and he benefited from what resources there were being sucked away from him and towards other... Well, absolutely. 28:53 Like, I mean, you see, like, I mean, and you often have to consider the fact, like, I mean, that, you know, a lot of these people that were involved in... 29:04 major, serious crime in the other area, in our area, like in particular, where, you know, as a result of what was going on with Marlow and that type of thing, like, I mean, he was sort of, you know, fighting them against each other and so, like, I mean, you had gangs fighting each other, like, I mean, in areas and that sort of stuff. 29:28 Did you get an insight into his personality? 29:32 He was one, like, I mean, he never, Sjord Affluence. 29:37 Ele sempre permaneceu em seu próprio background, em Carverin e Fingas, em lugares onde ele viveu, ele nunca mostrou nenhum affluxo, até mesmo com os carros que ele estava dirigindo, ou motorbikes, ou qualquer coisa. Ele não estava... Ele não estava... Ele não estava... Ele não estava... Ele estava... 30:07 No, ele não era aquele tipo. Ele era mais a stay-down, low-key level, stay-in-your-own-area, onde você controlou tudo, e você era able to... Everyone was looking out for you, e everyone was watching what the guards were doing, e, you know, would report back to him as quick as... You know, so that he could keep that one step ahead of you. 30:28 So, you would think that... O que era o seu lua era o poder, rather than o dinheiro? 30:33 O poder, sim. O dinheiro, claro, obviamente, o dinheiro era lá. E você está falando de uma vasta quantidade de dinheiro. 30:42 e ele tinha um espaço em relative's names e all that sort of stuff. Particularly at the time of his murder he was housed in Dutchie Holland. 30:53 He had actually brought in Holland who had only got out of prison at the time. He brought in Dutchie as... I think he brought him in more as a scare to try and scare off any would-be assassins. porque ele era paranoia. 31:12 Sim, e na hora da sua morte, ele era moving around. 31:15 Oh, ele era moving around. Ele não era apenas staying em Denise's house all the time. Ele era moving entre ex-girlfriends e ex-friends, houses, e tal tipo de coisa. Mas ele did spend quite considerable time em Denise's house, que era apenas a new house que tinha sido construído em Scribblestone. E... 31:38 ele estava ocupando o quarto da casa, e ele estava ficando segura. E então, ele estava... 31:49 He had his henchmen calling up to see him every day, like I mean, and including Dutchie and that, like I mean. And Dutchie, as you're probably well aware, like I mean, was suspect for Veronica Gearn's murder, like I mean. 32:01 The gunman. 32:02 The gunman for that. And he was also, like I mean, you know, as a very... Inscreva-se. 32:39 E, você sabe, eu estava chegando no telefone, eu estava chegando no telefone, eu estava chegando no telefone, eu estava chegando no telefone, eu estava chegando no telefone, eu estava chegando no telefone. 32:58 You heard that before you even got there? 33:00 No, I mean, even as I was on my way, we were getting information. Like, I mean, I went down with the local superintendent at the time. I brought him down in my car. We drove straight to the scene, like, I mean, and we arrived there, I'd say, less than 15 minutes or so after it happened, like, you know. But it was amazing the amount of guys who had arrived, you know, and from different areas, you know, like, I mean, different areas. 33:26 groupings and detective units and that, like, I mean, who had arrived on the same place was being preserved. 33:34 And, you know, the ballistics and forensic people arrived very quickly. You know, very quickly. 33:44 And I wouldn't, you know, like, I mean, I made a decision, don't let anyone else into the house now until they arrive and go through it. Because at that stage, there had been a few people into the house, like, I mean, you know, and we had to take their Fingerprints, shoes, everything else like that, you know, for trace evidence and that. 34:03 So, the less they've moved around in the house, the better. And that was including myself. 34:09 And from a practical point of view, it's a very quick response. It's a very quickly shut down crime scene, which is, this isn't a drive-by shooting. So, you know, from the obvious evidence to hand and the two victims that these gunmen have travelled through the house, one or both. 34:33 So there's probably a lot to be garnered from that crime scene. 34:37 But it's amazing, there was very little. Believe it or believe it or not, there was very little forensic evidence recovered at the scene. 34:50 We've got this shell casing of the So we would have been able to trace it back to the firearm if we were to govern the firearm. Marlow was upstairs in the box room and I went up to see him and I waited until the forensic came in and the forensic put down the various footings that we could stand on, plates that we could stand on. E eu me lembro de ir para ver ele e ele estava lá no seu lado. 35:25 E imediatamente você podia ver ele tinha dois olhos só no seu lado, no seu lado. E ele também tinha, o que você chama, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um It all happened within a very short period of time. David Murphy, the plumber, had arrived with Anthony Campbell. 35:58 And they had gone into the house when Elaine, his niece, Marlow's niece, was there. And she was going to bring a child to school. And she brought her younger child with her. But before she went, she went up and she gave Marlow Highlands a number of sulfidine. 36:15 e a drink. E ela falou que o plumas estavam lá embaixo e que eles estavam lá embaixo e que eles estavam lá embaixo e que eles estavam lá embaixo e que eles estavam lá embaixo porque eles estavam lá embaixo e que a central heating não estava funcionando. E então ela disse que ela estava lá embaixo. 36:31 And that would have been around 9 o'clock. At 9.18, the plumber is David Murphy, who had left the house, was buying, because we knew from the receipt, like, I mean, in the shop that he was down in Finglas, he was buying plumbing equipment. And... He arrived, Mike, to the house at 9, and we have him ringing Anthony at 9.28 because he couldn't get an answer at the door. So you're talking about a 10-minute period there. And our honest belief that this happened shortly after Elaine left and David Murphy left. 37:13 And once David left the house, the people who were waiting to come in They didn't see or didn't know that Anthony was in the house. 37:26 You don't think they saw two go in? 37:27 I don't believe they saw that because they saw the van but they probably didn't see the passenger getting out as well as the driver and going into the house. 37:40 And when they went in the first thing they saw was Anthony on his hands and knees down at the radiator in the front room. 37:50 e eu acredito que um de eles deixou ele e ele deixou ele primeiro. Eles não foram filmados ou nada assim. Eles foram filmados e eles foram filmados e eles mortaram Marlowe em sua cama. E aí eles não foram filmados. Eu não acredito que eles foram filmados. Porque eles foram filmados de algumas notícias. Eles não foram filmados. Eles não foram filmados. Eles não foram filmados. 38:20 Mas eu tenho a sensação de que eles me conhecem de Antony, de que Antony me conhece, e que ele me conhece de Antony, e de que ele me conhece de Antony, e de que ele me conhece de Antony. e que é provavelmente a razão eu acredito que eles... ou você poderia dizer que ele sabia que ele era capaz de identificar ele, pelo menos. 38:48 Mas nós acho que era mais mais do que. Mas foi quando eles decidiram shootar ele. 38:54 Foi o mesmo gun usado? O mesmo gun usado. Foi o mesmo gunman? O mesmo gun, sim. 39:00 Do you think there was a discussão? 39:04 Hopefully não. 39:06 Eu espero que Deus não, porque... 39:09 You know, young Anthony was just left on the ground. And as I said to you, he was a young man, he was 20 years of age, but he certainly didn't look 20. When I saw him, he looked like a young man of 15, just lying curled on the ground. 39:25 And you could see where the bullet had gone through his hand, like where he obviously put his hand up to try and protect himself or shield himself from what was coming. You know, so it was... 39:38 It was a tough scene. 39:40 And outside the crime scene, so sorry, one thing I wanted to ask you was, was there carpet in the house? 39:47 Not to my recollection, it was more wood, wooden floors, that type of thing. 39:51 Which is probably more difficult to get forensics from, is it? Yeah. 39:55 And... The only thing is, if you had walked in dirt or walked in dust or anything like that, like, I mean, and walked on it, you would leave probably an imprint of a shoe or whatever like that, you know. 40:06 Yeah. 40:07 So you'd be looking for, like, and the forensics people would be able, well able to, you know, with dust and everything else like that, to bring up the likes of that. 40:19 Perder peso, recuperá-lo. Perder peso, recuperá-lo. A culpa não é sua. O corpo pode resistir à perda de peso e fatores fora do seu controle podem causar resistência biológica. Fale com o seu médico e saiba mais em obesidadomadoença.pt Uma iniciativa Lili Portugal. 40:41 O tempo não espera por ninguém, mas o Seiko Astron acompanha-o onde quer que vá. Com precisão atómica, um segundo a cada 100 mil anos, sem necessidade de mudança de bateria e apenas alimentado por energia luminosa, ajusta-se a qualquer fuso horário. Seiko Astron, o primeiro relógio GPS solar do mundo no seu pulso. 41:08 You know, we have this impression probably from crime dramas on the television, but that we leave DNA everywhere we go, that we, you know... That we shed. That we shed. And so somebody stood over the top of Marlowe Highland in the bed for, presumably it takes a few seconds anyway, to release six bullets from a gun into... And there would have been blood and possibly from the, you know, the gun going off, there might have been some movement of the person. 41:42 But was there anything around the bed or anything? No. 41:47 No. Strangely, no. 41:48 And the type of guns they were using were 9mm handguns. And they don't recoil that very heavily in your hand compared to a revolver type of weapon. I mean, the 9mm will, you know, can, there will be a recoil from it. But it was the gun, the shots were fired at very close range. So, like, I mean, if we had got those people immediately after the robbery or the shooting after, you would have a gunshot residue on them and all that type of thing. 42:25 So, like, I mean, the place was, like, when even the fire brigade, when they went in, like, I mean, to check the bodies and that, like, for life, when they went in, you could smell the cord out in the room, like, I mean, in Marlow, where Marlow was shot dead, you could smell the gunpowder, and that was a while after it. Mm-hmm. 42:44 E você esperava que se tivesse tivesse tido com a roupa, se tivesse tido com a roupa. E o que tinha tido com a roupa? A roupa, nada. A roupa, nada. 42:51 A roupa, nada. A roupa, nada. 42:53 Ou a roupa, nada. 42:55 Ou a roupa, nada. Ou a roupa, nada. 42:56 Ou a roupa, nada. Ou a roupa, nada. Ou a roupa, nada. 43:00 Ou a roupa, nada. Ou a roupa, nada. 43:03 E a porta do Marlowe, a sala de abertura. A porta de abertura. 43:20 e eu não esperava mais de eles. Mas eu sabia que eles eram experts em seu campo e eu estava feliz com o trabalho que eles carregam. 43:28 E eu acho que os hitmen eram experts em seu campo também e eles tinham planejado e eles não tinham não ser colocado em uma mão na banheira. Ou era uma dúvida que eles tinham algo sobre eles? 43:43 É muito possível, mas eu não acho que eles não tinham resorado para isso. 43:49 I know that certain items were bought before. Certain items of clothing and shoe footwear were bought before the murder. And that's how far we were able to bring that. We know who bought them and they were never recovered. 44:09 And how quickly did you identify the suspects? 44:12 Practically immediately. 44:15 How? 44:16 Well, following the robbery, two cars were seen. The car that was used, like I mean, in the murder, and a car was following it. 44:29 And the second car that was following the VW Passat, black VW Passat was used. 44:39 And you had a second car then that was following that. The VW Passat was burnt out. That was driven down to, just off Ballygall Road East. 44:51 You had a little laneway there, which ran between Ballygall Road East, down near the, there was an old folks vats there. And it, you know, it used to be, you could walk through it and drive through it at one stage. 45:06 Even though there was bollards there, you could still drive through. But that particular morning that it was there, I mean, there was a steel shed, a workman shed, like I mean, from the corporation or council. And they were doing work in the lane and work on houses nearby. 45:22 So they couldn't actually drive the whole way through, like I mean. But that led out from Ballygall Road East into Glacinane Estate, Glacinane Avenue, which is just behind. And the car was set alight there. And again, the car didn't exactly burn to a cinder either. So there was forensics examination of that as well. 45:44 Three people in total? 45:46 I believe there's three, possibly four even. 45:48 Yeah, possibly another driver of one of those cars. Possibly another driver, yeah. Unidentified. And, you know, Eamon the Dondon, even back then, was a fairly recognisable face in that area. 45:58 He was very, very recognisable. And that was really at the beginning of his... 46:04 eu vou dizer, a coming-of-age in criminality, like, I mean, in the area. Like, I mean, he was beginning to rise into notoriety. Like, I mean, he was there. So, like, I mean, he would have had visions, probably, of taking over Marlowe's business. And did. And did, as we know. 46:24 Did witnesses in the area, were they immediately terrified? Because this is like, okay, you've got two things going on in this murder. It's not a standard sort of gangland murder because you have Marlowe Highland dead, but you have this innocent child almost dead as well, young adult. 46:43 Did it change the kind of the usual way that people came forward with information? Were they more forthcoming or were they still afraid? 46:50 They were very afraid. 46:57 E eu me lembro, eu me lembro de várias mortais em Finglas, em Finglas, em outskirts de Finglas também. E... Eu me lembro de casa-to-housa, eu me lembro de prioridade, que você ia fazer isso rapidamente. 47:15 Because you might get someone who would say something to you. They mightn't say to you at the door, but they'd say, look, I'll drop down and see you, or something like that. And we'd ask them to do that. Because I remember the last murder I was at, I was on a Sunday morning, and I was up at Ratote Road, Ratote Avenue. 47:38 And I seen two fairly notable criminals there. 47:44 And they were just looking down the street and they were just giving their hand across the throat, sign down to anyone who was there. Like, I mean, it was, you know, in other words, keep quiet, don't open, don't say anything to the guards. Like, I mean, that was the type of thing that you had in the Fingas area, like, I mean, at that particular time. You had a lot of major criminals residing in the area. 48:07 And people were actually quite terrified of... Porque havia muitos mortos em Finglas. E eles não queriam ser o próximo, você sabe? Pessoas foram intimidadas, as notícias, as notícias que tivéssemos em Finglas foram intimidadas. A mesma em Blanchestown, você sabe? E... Não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não, não. 48:38 E eu vou ser um believer agora, como eu disse, que isso é um caso, que ainda pode ser resolvido. E pode ser resolvido por witnesses coming forward, por falar com pessoas, por falar com outros criminosos. Porque um monte de pessoas que criaram esse medo em que era particular, são agora agora. Eles são muito older. 49:10 Their status as major criminals would no longer, you know, be there, like I mean, to affect any potential witnesses or anything like that. 49:22 And, you know, people have consciences and you would sort of hope, like I mean, that their conscience would eventually help them to come and say, look, I did see this. I did see who did it. I did see the people who did this. I know them. 49:39 And so many years later, their statements are still very valid. Absolutely, yes. 49:44 You know, people sort of see things like, I mean, and they see them sort of like as if watching a picture. And it embeds itself in their memories like, I mean, I know like, I mean, that was embedded in my memory. 49:59 So if you're talking about me as a sort of so-called seasoned, hard detective, You know, like, I mean, you're talking about people, just ordinary working class people who were there. So you can imagine what that was doing to them. You know, to be embedded visibly, visibly on their brains, you know, like I mean, so that they'd be recalling it for a long, long time, you know. 50:24 Certainly, like, I mean, I know there's people out there who know an awful lot more than what they told us, even including associates of Marlow who were called to the house that morning. 50:35 you know, and who were so-called great friends of his and that, like, I mean, you know, the amount of work that went into was just incredible, like, I mean, you know, we didn't leave any stone and I'm happy we didn't leave any stone in turn, like, I mean, and when I left, it was one, how would you say, one murder of, the murders that I had, like, I mean, that we didn't solve, obviously, and, but none of them, like, I mean, affected me like this one, So this was one that we wanted to solve. 51:09 Because I remember meeting Anthony's mother, Christine, and his father, Noel, and I remember meeting other members of the family, and that's like... 51:20 Telling them how we were going. We didn't hide anything from them. We told them where we were. Told them the difficulties we were having. 51:29 And we were having difficulties. There's no point in saying we weren't. 51:32 And to try and get a conviction. We could go so far with them. 51:38 Was there a huge amount of pressure? I mean, the publicity around the case was so huge. The innocent victim... 51:44 Well, I know, like, I mean, obviously, like, I mean, we had a lot of pressure from my authorities, like, I mean, at the time. But, you know, like, I mean, and rightly so, probably, like, I mean, because everyone wanted to solve this case. 51:59 And, like, I mean, we had regular meetings with the assistant commissioner. It was Martin Callanan at the time. Noel White, who was the detective chief superintendent in the NBCI. We had certain... 52:12 We had people from the NBCI giving us assistance for a short period of time, but then they were, like everything else, they were dragged away for other crimes. So we were back down to our own resources, which were limited, and I mean limited. But on top of that, you see, I could have three or four murders going on at one time. I know that sounds crazy. 52:39 I was in Blanchistown, Finglas, from 2002 to 2007. I had 19 murders. 52:45 I had about 20 or 30 attempted murders. I had shootings. I had bombings. I had major drugs problems. I had rapes. 53:01 I had major burglaries. You know, you have all your other crime that you have there as well, like I mean, that you have to do. And you have your small core unit. 53:09 And those people were great. 53:12 But they were being flogged to death. com todo o trabalho que eles tinham que fazer. Foi incrível o trabalho. E incrível o trabalho que eles tinham que fazer. Eles nunca flaggavam isso, que era fantástico. 53:28 Então, para mim, a investigação, a nuts e bolsas de isso, vai estar... 53:37 In the same way as in the recent conviction of Noah Long for the murder of Nora Sheehan. That original investigation was robust, was really good. There was just... 53:48 Just a lack of the final piece of evidence. A couple of people had died. Anyway, so it's solved and both the Forensic Ireland and the detectives that originally were on it did nothing wrong. And that's what stood to that case and got it through the final hurdle, which may have come 40 odd years later, but nonetheless it did. It did. And it feels to me as if this investigation is similar. 54:16 I would certainly hope so. It can be solved. It's very, very close. Even to this day, it's very close. It doesn't need an awful lot extra. It needs just a little bit of help from the public to do it, you know, and clear it. 54:35 And Christine Campbell questions, why can this not be reviewed, this case? 54:40 Yeah, I've often asked that question as well. 54:43 From the nature of the two suspects and what you know of them, do you think this sits badly with them, what they did that day? Well, I think it has to sit badly with them. 54:55 Whatever about murdering Marlow, certainly killing the innocent young lad, that has to sit with them. 55:04 You know, and I'd say that was probably done out of fear more than anything else. 55:09 they would be identified, that he'd be able of identifying them. 55:13 And that's not the type of murder that you do. 55:19 If you're going in like, I mean, these were seasoned criminals. They were going in to carry out a hit on Marlow Island. That was, you know, that was their plan. 55:28 And, you know, they certainly weren't going in to murder young Anthony Campbell. 55:38 Do people who choose and make money from a life like that feel remorse? Some do, some don't. 55:47 I've often met fellas afterwards, even since I retired. 55:55 You know, I've met people. 55:56 They come up on the street, like, I mean, recently I was in a petrol yard scare, getting petrol, and this fella came up and... 56:06 I was in the queue like him and he says, we know you. As soon as he said, I looked around and I saw his assistant and I turned to him, I know you too. You know, the one thing you certainly don't do is you don't show fear or anything like that. You can't, like I mean, you know, like I mean, the amount of times you're threatened as you go down through 36 anos e a polícia, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, você vai, sort of me life out, like, you know. 56:54 That's about time. 56:55 Man, delighted to hear that, I said, you know, make sure you keep it up that way, you know. 57:00 Yeah, yeah. 57:01 At least you're doing the effort, you know, and I was, you know, and he had, outside he had a lovely, fairly newish van there and a young lad working with him, like, I mean, so I'd say that they were doing... 57:14 removals and that type of thing. But at least it was honest work. 57:17 People change. 57:18 People do change. 57:19 The witnesses you're talking about that are vital perhaps to this case, are they eyewitnesses who saw cars or are they more sort of intimate witnesses? 57:34 Both. 57:35 Visited every house in the estate. 57:39 e também em casa na rua, na Torca Valley Road, você sabe, acrós da rua de Scribblestown. E nós tivemos alguns witnesses lá, mas nós também tivemos um witness em Scribblestown que disse que eles disseram que eles disseram que eles disseram que eles disseram que eles disseram que eles disseram que eles disseram que eles disseram que eles disseram que eles disseram Because if you hear shots and fingers, you look out and see what's going on because, you know, it's your natural instinct to look. 58:16 And when you look, you see things. 58:18 So there's no doubt in my mind that there are people there who decided to say nothing because they were fearful. They knew who Martin Highland was. So if he was murdered, the people who murdered him were serious criminals. And the likelihood was that their lives would be in danger if they said something. It wasn't anything to do with young Anthony Campbell. 58:41 It was more Marlow Island that had them terrified. Of course. But if they were prepared as well to murder an innocent child... 58:49 Then, you know, what were they going to do if you had them, you know, making a statement and going as a witness into the court or something like that and giving evidence in an open court, like, I mean, that the intimidation that those people would have been under, like, I mean, would have been colossal, you know, and I know that. 59:11 So, are you surprised to be sitting here today talking about this? 59:16 I am, actually, yeah. Like, I mean, it's a case, like I mean, that's never gone away, though. And it's a case, it's one of those cases that won't go away. 59:30 We need to try again. 59:31 I think so, yeah. I honestly believe, yeah. I'd love to go back again, just for that case. 59:38 E eu tenho 18 anos agora. Então... É a primeira. Oh, é a primeira. 59:48 Caught in the Crossfire is produced by Crime World, writer and producer Jane Finnegan, producer Clodo Meany, audio editor Jason Molini, art and graphics Enda Bulger, executive producers Nicola Talent and Ian Molini. You can listen to the full series now wherever you get your podcasts. 60:15 Perder peso, recuperá-lo. Perder peso, recuperá-lo. A culpa não é sua. O corpo pode resistir à perda de peso e fatores fora do seu controle podem causar resistência biológica. Fale com o seu médico e saiba mais em obesidadomadoença.pt Uma iniciativa Lili Portugal.