Lines of Enquiry: Irish True-Crime Podcast

00:00 I'm Alex Matisse and I'm the founder and CEO of EastFork. A Shopify transform something so difficult like opening a business and selling products online in a really simple task. A EastFork started with a small hauler. At the moment, we have a factory with about 115 employees. The management of a business involves a lot of concerns. Trash of sales should not be one of them. A Shopify simplifies, facilitates and makes everything fun. Come on your evaluation gratuitous in Shopify.com. 00:31 Case Notes. 00:32 A go loud original. 00:34 With Finance Solutions. For trusted mortgage advice, go to financesolutions.ie. Kegra Limited Trading as Finance Solutions is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. 00:45 Lines of inquiry, case notes are very proud to welcome our new long-term sponsor, Finance Solutions. Because when you're making a decision as important as buying a home, you want to know you're dealing with people you can trust. Finance Solutions helps thousands of people buy homes or switch their mortgages in Ireland every year. And with more than 3,000 five-star Google reviews, there are plenty of people who've already put their trust in their team. They offer simple mortgage advice tailored to you and your circumstances. Visit financesolutions.ie to get started. 01:16 A short 10-minute call is all it takes to help them understand your needs. Kegra Limited, trading as finance solutions, part of Howden, is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Now, let's get into today's lines of inquiry, case notes. 01:36 My name is John Sweetman and this is Lines of Inquiry Case Notes. 01:48 My name is John Sweetman and this is Lines of Inquiry Case Notes. 01:53 In Case Notes, we step away from telling one specific case in detail and instead take some time to reflect, to revisit past investigations and to respond directly to you, the listener. 02:04 These episodes are about opening up the conversation. We'll be speaking with expert guest contributors, diving a little deeper into the issues behind the stories, and responding to some of the much-valued correspondence that comes into our mailbox. 02:18 If you have a message you'd like to share, a case you'd like us to revisit, or someone you'd like to hear from on future episodes of Case Notes, you can get in touch with us at linesofinquiry at goloudnow.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram at linesofinquirypodcast to keep up to date. 02:36 My guest today is a friend of the podcast and fellow true crime host Newells Nyclerig of Ireland Crimes and Mysteries. Newells has covered a wide range of criminal cases from historical investigations and Victorian era murders to more recent cases that continue to raise questions for families, investigators and the wider public. 02:57 Through her work, she has explored the evidence, the people and the unanswered questions behind those cases, while keeping the human impact at the centre of the discussion. Nuals, you're very welcome. Great to see you. 03:09 Thanks, John. That's an amazing introduction, if I do say so myself. 03:14 You deserve it, you know. And yeah, how's things going for you? 03:20 I am great now. I can't complain. I've been working away, as they say. Yeah. Getting out the weekly podcast. 03:26 Every week. And you write all the episodes. 03:30 I write all the episodes. Yeah. Research them all. Write them all. Edit them all. 03:34 And how long? 03:35 I'm going to record them before I edit them. 03:37 I suppose you must be talking nine or ten thousand words. 03:40 Yeah, thereabouts, between eight and 10,000 words, yeah, yeah, an episode. 03:46 That's a lot of going. 03:47 And then obviously some of them turn into two-parters then, you know, because there's more information than you can put into one episode. So, yeah, it's a lot, but I enjoy it. So I suppose it doesn't make it, the most stressy thing is that you have one ready for the day it's meant to go out. Yeah. 04:04 Yeah. 04:04 And once you're there, then you're all right. You can relax a little bit. 04:08 But as you say, you're still enjoying it. I am. 04:11 I am. It's great. It's so interesting. 04:16 Everything about true crime is interesting, especially Irish true crime, isn't it? 04:21 When it's so close to... Yeah, whatever it is about it. I think it's because, I think we talked about it before, we're such a small country and... 04:30 everybody knows somebody at least you know you're not that far removed yeah or you've or you've been to a town or a village where something has happened or you've passed a place where oh that's where such and such thing happened and like we're just like the amount of people that say i'm sure you've got the same we ever going to run out of episodes yeah i get asked that all the time will you can you cover this one can you cover that one yeah you never will run out of material and No, unfortunately for, you know, in one respect. 04:58 Yeah, well that's just the way things are, but unfortunately, you know, for the people at the centre of these things, but as regards material for us. 05:07 Absolutely. And like the way I look at it is it's nice to be able, like a lot of these cases do get forgotten. And get kind of, I suppose, through time, they just kind of, with newer cases coming on the scene and all that, they just get forgotten and there's still families and all that out there trying to get answers, especially, you know, missing people and all that kind of stuff. And if we can help in any way, shape or form by, you know, just keeping their names open. 05:36 Yeah. 05:37 And I know, like, we've shared some cases over the last year or so since Lines of Inquiry has been going, but, you know, the likes of Kelly Lynch and I think you did Barbara Walsh and that as well. 05:52 Yeah, Karen Buckley. 05:53 You know, things that haven't, Karen Buckley as well, but also cases that haven't been resolved, missing persons or, you know... 06:03 Yeah. That's like, they're getting like, cause hopefully people that listen to lines of inquiry might listen to Ireland crimes and mysteries and vice versa. And they're getting a recap, like, you know, like it just keeps it, keeps the story going in a sense, you know, that's, that's the way I look at it. 06:19 Yeah. Like, I mean, because, and I find it fascinating myself because when, when we sit down to discuss what we're going to do for a season, be it stories or whatever, And, you know, more often than not, a lot of them are things that I have no much knowledge about. And then you start to look into them. Like I got to write a couple of episodes there last season. One of the cases I was familiar with, but the other one I wasn't. That was Declan Flynn. He was murdered in 1982. But like that, just something I'd never heard about. 06:51 Like, okay, I was only a young lad at the time, but... 06:54 But still, like, you know, it's, and then you, as we were discussing before we came on, you end up going down a rabbit hole. 07:00 Yeah, yeah. 07:01 You know, and like, you're just wanting to see where it all leads to, like, you know, and get all the information, get enough information, you know, because I'd often now, like, as you were saying to their, that people be asking you, like, you know, could you cover this case or could you cover that case? And obviously, I'd love to cover all the cases. 07:19 Mm-hmm. 07:20 But like some of them don't have as much information out there to make up an episode for you to cover the case fully, like, which is very frustrating, obviously, because, you know, you'd want. So what I did there, one of the episodes I did, kind of the Unforgotten, I called it, like, you know, so I kind of meshed about four or five cases into one episode. And I said, I might do that a bit more now and try and get like lesser known cases with... kind of not that much information in them, kind of, you know, get them into an episode, get the people's names there. 07:53 But still get the names out there. 07:54 Yeah. Yeah. You know, and people, people really, like I got a lot of people saying that they, they really, I hate using the word enjoyed because that's the wrong word, but you know, they found it very interesting, I suppose, you know, and that they hadn't heard of a lot of these names. So, you know. 08:09 I have to rub that idea now and start trying, you know, but yeah. And, and even taking that to us, it's extreme. And I noticed not there, I don't know how recent it was that you covered it. And it was a case that another one I hadn't heard anything about, but I did go down the rabbit hole on it was that the Mam Trasna. 08:31 oh wow now yeah and now that's that's not a recent case not recent 1880s oh my god it was 1880 was it 1880 1880s anyway over in the so that's how long that was one of my very early days 1882 yeah that was one of i'd say it was definitely season one anyway right and um yeah that was i had heard that um i'd listened to watch something on youtube about it i'd never heard of it before neither had i until and i was like how did i not hear of this before this is like unreal like this was like a uh you multiple homicide yeah five five people five members of the same family killed And then the poor man then that was wrongfully hung for it, like, you know, and it was just all the kind of historical stuff that was involved in it as well. 09:20 Like, you know, in the sense stuff that you'd hear, say, like your grandparents talking about back in the day and that like about the keening at the funerals. You know, the women, they're brought in professionally to cry at these funerals, you know. And the fact that it was the man at the centre of the whole trial had no English. Like, that's kind of unheard of today. 09:41 Yeah, the trial was held in Dublin in English. 09:45 Yeah. 09:46 And yet the defendants were all gale gores or whatever, you know. I found that fascinating. 09:51 It was a fascinating story and it kind of linked in a bit with the Marl Hill one in a sense, even though there were a hundred. Now, I don't know if you, I did a murder at Marl Hill. It was in Tipperary and it was basically the Harry Gleeson, the guy that was in jail for murdering this lady, Mal McCarty. back in the 1940s he got he was hung for it but he got a posthumous pardon only five or six years ago as well so it reminded me the two because Miles got a posthumous pardon as well you know what I mean so like you do get innocent people you know being put to death like you know what I mean yeah and I think okay there was something there to mark the the 10:42 The burial plot at the old Galway Jail. But I just found it very, I don't know what the word was for it, that there is a memorial of such to him in the car park of what is now the cathedral in the centre of Galway. Because, you know, that's where the jail was. That's where the burial ground was. 11:03 So it's just... At least he's been remembered now, I suppose. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, I know it's just a little, too little, too late, I suppose. The person is gone and... 11:13 But there's still descendants and all that. That's it. 11:16 It's for the family's... 11:18 You know, it's for the family, you know, because I'm sure it goes down through the generations. It's always the story in the family, isn't it? Like that we had an uncle or we had a great grandfather. 11:28 Yeah, because I was speaking to one of our producers here, Siobhan, and she's from, you know, that neck of the woods. 11:34 And I had mentioned the Ma'am Truss in the case and she was like, in certain parts of that over there in the Joyce country, that's still a hot potato. Like, you know, it is still very much... 11:47 contentious kind of yeah yeah it's amazing the way it goes down through the generations like because obviously there's nobody still alive from when that happened but it still has such a kind of a you know it's like the Bridget Cleary one as well I remember and that's like a hundred and whatever years ago as well and like that's still there's still people when I did that one people were kind of messaging me saying you know that they were either a relative or they were from the area and it was still you know a very as you said hot topic and Yeah. In the area like you know so like it's mad how these things carry through the generations. 12:22 And what's that, there was another one there, Mary Laura Cross. 12:26 Oh yes, the Shandy Hall. That was the one actually that I covered down at the Altogether Now Festival. Right. Yeah, that was very interesting because it was just, it kind of happened, I suppose, on the cusp of when forensic science was becoming a thing. And her husband was a doctor. This was back again in Victorian Ireland in the 1800s. Her husband was a doctor. 12:50 She started getting sick, basically, violently ill. They were living in a big house down in County Cork, Coachford in County Cork, actually. So it was a big old stately home, I suppose you'd say. So they were well-to-do people. 13:05 And she was getting sicker and sicker. She wasn't getting any better. He was looking, he was kind of her main carer, you know, and he was insisting on being her main care, even sitting up with her at night and all that. And sure, obviously everybody taught the local doctor, you know, back in those days, the local doctor was like a god or whatever. So they assumed she was getting good care. So when she did eventually die, he put down on her death, he signed her death cert as well and he put it down as typhoid fever. 13:33 Right. 13:33 But to cut a long story short anyway, about two weeks later, he took up with the former governess of the children. 13:40 Yeah. 13:41 And people's, you know, ears started to kind of prick and kind of go, what's going on here? Like, you know, your wife is only buried a couple of weeks. So there was a, they exhumed her body and they did testing on her body for various things. And turned out she had been poisoned with arsenic. 13:59 Yeah. 14:00 you know and he got done for it in the end but he didn't even know that that was a thing at the time that you know they could test for these things they could test for those things yeah like he bought it on the premise because obviously stately home he was on a farm and seemingly they used to use arsenic for sheep dipping back then right so when he was taking it from the chemist he put down sheep dipping as the reason why he was taking it but he was taking it to obviously poison his wife do you know because he'd met the governess and he was convicted and everything yeah yeah Yeah, absolutely. 14:30 And she gave birth then, the governess, to a baby boy not so long after he was convicted. 14:36 Yeah. 14:37 Do you know? So it was very sad. It was very sad for everybody. There's no winners in these situations. 14:42 Yeah. Very interesting though. Very interesting. 14:44 a lot of those cases are like that's why I like to cover them and kind of put them in between the modern cases because you know they're just different I suppose you know it was a different time there was a different way of investigating you didn't have CCTV you didn't have phones you didn't have DNA so like it was kind of witnesses and word of mouth kind of and you know it was a totally different way of policing from the way you would now. 15:07 Completely different obviously like even it's before the Gardaí form so you're dealing with you know, different constabulary and everything. But yeah, fascinating stuff. 15:15 Yeah. 15:16 But yeah, like you say, it is very important to keep some of these things somewhat in the public consciousness. You can't expect everybody to remember everything in case, but it is important every now and again to stoke the fire a bit. 15:31 It might be while the person is just listening to it. 15:33 Yeah. 15:33 And it might be a new listener or something, you know, that mightn't have heard all your episodes or something and they suddenly start, you know, and they suddenly go, hold on, I remember something about that. You know, that's all it takes. 15:44 That's all it takes. And like, in recent times, there's been appeals in a particular case. And I remember it happening. I was working in the Bureau at the time, the murder of Renee Murray. 15:56 That's right. 15:56 I think, what's that, 1998, as far as I remember. 16:00 Yeah, 99, I think it was. 99. Yeah. 16:03 But like that, I think they've been appealing for information again. But an unsolved murder. 16:11 And there's been so many kind of theories about her murder, haven't there? Like, you know, there's obviously been, was it the chef that they were talking about? Oh, sure. The person that was in the taxi with the bloodstained clothes and the female, you know, in air quotes, as they say, kind of a suspect. You know, like there's been so many theories and I mean, it's not a hundred years ago either. 16:34 No, like I mean, it's like, you know, whatever it is, like it's less than. 16:38 And they were on the scene, let's say fairly lively. 16:41 And Dun Laoghaire, like you might as well say it's Dublin city for want of a better word and to still remain unsolved, like. 16:51 For you now, being an ex-detective, the way she was assaulted, you could say, it was quite a vicious assault. To me now, being the unprofessional of the two of us, that would seem very personal. 17:07 Yeah. 17:08 It's up close and personal. Yeah. 17:11 I was only a year or two in the Bureau at the time. I wasn't on that job. I know some of the people that were. Yeah, an outdoor scene, but in a relatively built up area like that. 17:23 And like, as you say, it's not kind of, it's not like a robbery gone wrong. No. even, doesn't even appear to be a sexual motive. 17:35 No, it seems like it was, to me, obviously this isn't like concrete, but to me it seems like it was somebody that knew her. 17:42 Yeah. 17:43 That they had a gripe or something. Like, you know, she was so close to home. Did they follow her from the pub? 17:49 Yeah. 17:49 Do you know, because she had come from the pub, she was going home to change, to go back to the nightclub. Like, did they follow her? Because other witnesses said that they heard a loud exchange kind of going on, but like between people. So to me, it seems like either somebody followed her from the pub, somebody saw her and went, there's that, you know what, I'm going to, you know, 18:11 Yeah, certainly to me, like again, you know, I wasn't involved in the investigation, but to me it does kind of lend itself to this was somebody that newer, more than likely around the same age and from the same area, which to me would lead on that... 18:31 Plenty of people, well, at least some people know who is responsible. Yeah. 18:37 And as the Gardaí said at the time, or not the time, but in their fresh appeal there this year, like, you know, that your circumstances might have changed. You know, you might have been afraid to come forward back then. You know, you're too young to kind of understand the gravity of what you knew. And that's like, you know, there's various reasons why you might need to come forward at the time. But like, you know, you're not going to get into trouble for only coming forward now, you know. 19:01 Yeah, like, I mean, we have to be careful when we're talking about cases like that in that you don't cast aspersions on people without backing up what you're talking about because we live in a litigatious world these days. So, like, sometimes I just see and we read all the comments that come in on lines of inquiry and stuff like that. That we didn't talk about this aspect of something or that aspect of something. In particular, recently with the Kerry Babies episode we covered. 19:32 And, you know, in relation to the mistreatment of the people at the centre by the Gardaí. 19:38 Yes. 19:39 But you have to be careful in what way you say things. Absolutely. 19:44 you know proof proof proof behind you yeah we can only say defamation yes absolutely of character yeah and if somebody hasn't been tried in a court of law and found guilty we can't yeah yeah that they did it yeah 20:11 It reminds me of the Nora Sheehan case in Cork. And okay, that's, you know, that's run its course now. The man was convicted no long, but it took, I don't know how many years, decades until the DNA technology was there. But even back in the day, back when she was murdered, back in, oh, I can't remember, was it the early 80s? But everybody and their dog knew who did it. 20:38 And because of one thing or another, the trial didn't proceed because the death of the pathologist, I think it was something like that. The trial didn't proceed. So you still had the culprit out there and everybody knew it, but it hadn't been proven in a court of law until. 20:53 And all the gossiping. Yeah. Not gossiping, that's the wrong word. Everybody talking about it and pointing a finger, I suppose. But like. I'm sure the people that were on radio at the time, there was no podcast back then, but on radio at the time, you know, weren't going openly saying the name of the person or that, you know, this person is, you know, you know, you just can't do that. 21:12 Like, we have to be very careful. Absolutely. 21:17 And you don't want to wrongfully accuse anybody, even if there is evidence kind of pointing in one direction. 21:22 Yeah. 21:23 You know, you still, that doesn't, that's not proof of guilt, like, you know, you still have to be mindful of that. 21:30 Yeah, and I don't think we dabble in speculation either. No. You know. No. 21:36 You have to follow the facts as much as you can anyway. As much as possible. And take it from there. 21:42 And then some of those cases are still ongoing investigations. Yeah. The Kelly Lynch one. Now, even though there's the Sophie Tuscan de Plantea case, I mean, that hasn't reached the conclusion. Oh my God, yeah. And there is... 21:52 currently a review going on on that as well. Like, you know. 21:56 Yeah, that's a very, I like, I want to, because I said I must check it up actually, because I haven't kind of gone back down that rabbit hole in a while, but hadn't they, when Ian Bailey died, didn't they take stuff from his house and all that at the time and do DNA testing? But like, and they were going to send in the DNA off for this specialized kind of, or they were sending some of the was it the block or something where they send that off for a specialised DNA kind of extract the DNA but like it's kind of gone radio silent like you know yeah well that's I mean they may something may come of it it depends if stuff has been 22:38 if there was enough there to begin with, to begin with an outdoor scene and stuff like that. But looking at that with the likes of the Norris Sheehan case, which took the best part, I think, of 40 years to come to a conclusion. Okay, it's 30 years now since Sophie... 22:55 It's 30 years, exactly. It will be in December, actually, now that you say it. 22:59 Yeah, so I mean, it just keeps rolling on. That case that's still very much an open investigation is Kyron Dernan. 23:09 Oh, I listened to your episode of that. It's so sad. 23:12 Yeah, and that's very much an active investigation. And again, I was reading the comments and people saying like, you know, well, it's obvious that this was the case or that was the case. But But I can't say that, you know, you have to, you have to be able to back these things up. 23:28 And that's a very sensitive case as well. I know all cases are sensitive, obviously, to the families that are involved. But when it involves a child, I just feel there's an extra layer of sensitivity around it. Yeah. And, you know, like, even though there's a lot of questions, obviously, to be answered in this case. Mm. Even from the state body involved, you know, you still have to be very careful how, you know, that was like, you know, fair play for tackling that one because it was a difficult one to tackle. 23:57 Yeah, I know. Like Darren Cleary, the creator of the podcast, from the word go, I think that was one that he was very much wanted to cover. Yeah. Yes. And, you know, it could have been an episode where you didn't have that much really to make a full engaging episode. But he did. He gathered a lot of stuff. He did. 24:20 Fair play. Yeah. 24:21 And factual stuff, like just stating the facts. 24:26 But it's still an open investigation. And I think myself and you probably know. long ago seen it in your podcast in Ireland Crimes and Mysteries, that you do carry that weight of, you know, being, you have to be ethical and you have to be mindful. Yeah. And, you know, I've certainly seen it develop over the time now lines of inquiry has been going. It's just so important. Like, you know, it's one of the very important things. 24:54 It's one of the most important things, like, you know, to be ethical. And, you know, because like, as you said, you're talking, well, you're talking about real people for starters. You're talking about, you're including families are included in these stories about a story that was probably the worst time of their whole lives. Yeah. 25:15 And like, you're very conscious then, you know, that you don't want to be raking, you know, you're raking up maybe a story or something. And, you know, you just have to be so careful that you tell it authentically, you know, and that you keep the focus on the story and keep the focus on the victim. And yeah, it's like, it's a fine line to tread, but you try and do it to the best of your ability. 25:42 Yeah. 25:42 It's humanly possible, like, you know what I mean? Yeah. 25:45 And you, like, I think we talked about it before, like you reach out usually to the families. I do. 25:49 Well, I try to, if I have, if I have a way of reaching out to them, I will. But like, you know, not all of them are obviously contactable, like, you know what I mean? But like, then in that case, obviously, as I said, you try and be very careful and you just, I just use information that's already out there for people to read. And I'm just putting, I suppose, all together into an episode, you know, so yeah. 26:12 I'd be just very mindful, I suppose, about how I speak about the person and how I, yeah. 26:17 Yeah, I know. 26:19 Like we've been doing that now for the last number of seasons, I think, for every case that we cover, if possible, somebody reaches out. 26:30 family and I've done it myself with one or two episodes that I've written and you know is this okay yeah and they might say well providing you get this in or get that in and that bit of extra information is great and a bit of extra information that puts humanises the person a lot more because very often what can happen to a victim of a crime is Say early on in the reporting, somebody latches on to something about them and it might necessarily be accurate. 27:01 And then that follows through. And I did that with one of the cases early on with murder of Jasmine McMonigle up in Donegal. And at the time, a lot of the media was reporting, you know, aspiring model or part-time model. 27:17 And I contacted her sister in researching the episode. And she says, that's all wrong. She had a long time ago been finished with that. All she wanted to do now was be a mother to her children and to write children's stories. 27:31 Yeah, completely different. 27:32 And she was actually working on her first book at the time. 27:35 Wow. 27:36 And I said, that's worth its weight in gold. Absolutely. It paints the picture of the real person rather than, you know. 27:44 And that's what I feel a lot of people really... 27:47 want to hear is about the character of the person what they were interested in you know what like bring them to life as much as you can you know what I mean and like I find I think that's very important too even when I'm listening to other podcasts or watching you know a documentary you know I want to know about the victim and like the perpetrator of the crime is just a kind of a side note to me you know what I mean I want to bring the person back to life and let people see that they weren't just a statistic they weren't just a person that this happened to that they did have a full and plentiful and bountiful hopefully life before whatever happened to them happened to them on that 28:25 like that's one moment of their whole lives that happened to be obviously the worst moment of their lives but they had a full life you know they could have had a family children grandchildren you know and I've found with that with some of the episodes that I've researched myself you become almost very attached to that person that you're writing about yes and I know myself and I'm sure it's the same for you it becomes very hard to let them go yeah when you're finished doing your research and And you're like, how am I ever going to move on to the next one? 28:56 And you do. 28:58 To me, it was something that I didn't expect when I started this. When I started out with this podcast crack, you know, because I'd come from the background that I was doing every case, come over my desk, handwriting, whatever it is, blah, blah, blah, blah, goes to court, whatever, bang, on to the next one. And even while I was working on them, you're working on them from a procedural, you know, evidential point of view with the end goal of possibly presenting evidence in court. 29:30 Whereas when you sit down to write an episode for the likes of, you know, the podcasts that we do, you're looking at everything, you know, and sometimes there mightn't be that much in the way of forensic stuff or, or all that. And it's about the person. And I love it. I love doing that, but it can be hard to let 29:50 It can be hard because they become, as I said, a real person. And like, even the one that I just kind of did there in the last couple of weeks about Valerie French, like, you know, she just seemed like, but she seemed like such a great person, like, you know, you know, she was willing to give everything a go, you know, like, you know, she, she, she just, like, she had her little polytunnel and she had chickens and, you know, she had her job and, She just seemed to be, she was into weaving and she even planted willow trees for, you know, like, and I was like, this is amazing. 30:21 Like, you know what I mean? She sounds like such a cool person. Yeah. 30:25 I did an episode there on Siobhan McLaughlin not too long ago. 30:31 And, you know, I was aware of the case. I was, you know, and I was aware of the media at the time and all that. But the more I looked into it, the person behind that, 30:41 Yeah. 30:41 And I was like, that's, it was brilliant because she came from, you know, she grew up in an area kind of like me out in the, you know, outside of Dublin. The schticks. Still in the schticks, like surrounded by farms and stuff like that. And I was like, yeah, I could, it really resonated with me and hardworking and, you know, really 31:01 Yeah, a decent person. 31:02 Decent person. 31:03 And like before that, you would have probably, like me when you say Siobhan McLachlan, you just remember the crime itself. 31:10 You remember the crime, you remember, you know. 31:14 And I'm sure a lot of families would prefer their family member to be known for the person they were and the decent and kind, not for that day. 31:25 Yeah, absolutely. 31:26 That doesn't define them. 31:27 And like that, I got so much from that research and that story and again, trying to let it go and stuff like that. 31:36 But, you know, that's what I'm learning over the period of time that I'm doing this sort of stuff that... 31:44 And we're always saying that it's so important that we make it about the person and the people they left behind and stuff like that. 31:52 Absolutely. 31:53 You mentioned there about Valerie French. Yes. 31:59 It's an interesting one in that her husband pleaded the old insanity defence. 32:07 The old insanity defence. I like the way you said that, yeah. 32:11 And, you know, depending on the case, you know, that may be a plausible thing. a plausible defence. 32:18 But there are times when it can be a handy defence. 32:22 A handy defence. And I don't really know much about that case. 32:26 Yeah, well, he, I suppose, to give it to you in a nutshell, he liked to smoke, what do we call it, the devil's lettuce, is that what they call it? 32:35 No, I agree. I don't know what to call it. 32:37 Is that the old school term for it? 32:38 The old bang of weed. 32:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 32:40 Yeah, cannabis or whatever. 32:41 Yeah, and the booze as well, I think. But they were trying to come at it from an angle, pleading not guilty. 32:47 Not guilty of. 32:48 True reasoning, like insanity. But his own, like, psychiatrists and that were kind of, like, they had various psychiatrists on defence and whatever. But the defence ones were kind of saying, like, that it was a psychotic episode because of his cannabis use, you know? Mm-hmm. And that it was just a psychotic moment, a psychotic break or whatever induced by the cannabis, like, you know, and obviously the prosecution were saying otherwise, like, you know. 33:16 The judge or the jury didn't go for it. 33:18 Oh, the jury didn't buy it at all. No, they didn't. No, he was found guilty, like, you know. 33:22 Yeah, but I've seen it in other cases. I've seen it in different cases, some we've covered, where the defendant successfully gets across this not guilty by reason of insanity or diminished responsibility. Yeah. 33:39 And... And doesn't get jailed, but like... Oh, it might get jailed, but might get... The mental... Might get manslaughter instead of murder or whatever the case may be. But... To me, it seems dependent very much on... Who's in the jury. Who's in the jury or the judge, because the judge might direct the jury to say A, B or C. Yeah. 33:59 And when you're dealing with something like that, you know, an insanity defense, you obviously have to have experts and you're going to have experts on both sides. 34:10 Yeah. 34:11 We'll see it from a very different angle. 34:13 And we'll see it from different angles depending on... On what side you're on. On what side you're on. 34:19 So it's which explanation you find the most plausible. 34:23 Which explanation the jury or the judge finds the most plausible. And I've been in courtroom situations, not necessarily with insanity stuff, but where you're arguing anything. I worked doing a lot of handwriting examinations and stuff like that, which can be a very... subjective kind of stuff and sometimes the evidence isn't very strong so you're arguing it back and forth and you know really in those cases say when I was given that type of evidence you would have to have an expert or supposed expert working for the defence disagreeing with me or casting a doubt you're always going to have like for those type of defences for insanity defences you're very much dependent on Expert evidence. 35:08 And in something that's very sensitive, you're talking about mental health and stuff like that. You can't pin it down. Everybody's mental health is different. 35:17 Absolutely. And we all blow our top sometimes. Do you know what I mean? 35:20 Everybody's different. 35:23 Everybody's experience of whatever mental difficulties is different because everybody's different. It's not like... 35:32 It's not a straight line. 35:33 Yeah, it's not like your monetary gain or sexual motive or jealousy or hatred or blow on the top. 35:43 The mental health thing is such a quagmire. We touched on the Renee Murray case and it brings to mind then as well Over the last several months, there was a bit more about the vanishing triangle and that because we had these digs going on down the country. And, you know, I was there hoping that, oh God, maybe this will be the one. This will be the one. And... 36:15 And what caught my attention, which I'm sure caught the whole country's attention, was that Deirdre Jacob and Jojo Dollard's names were suddenly being said in the same sentence about a dig, you know, because we were always, you know, from when they all happened back in the 90s, which we're old enough to remember. you know, they were all like, they were trying to put them together. Obviously there was, we were told at the time, like I can remember it, like there was a possibility of a, you know, a serial killer kind of working in the Leinster area and all this kind of stuff. 36:49 But as the years kind of progressed in, it became obvious that, you know, certain ones of them had their own individual suspects that weren't all linked together. 36:57 But yeah, I know what you're saying. But now suddenly... It was the first time that they were... Yeah. They were, you know, Deirdre and Jojo were mentioned in the same sentence in relation to these digs. 37:08 Yeah. 37:08 And at the very same time, we had Alan Bailey in here. He used to head up the cold case. Yes. We had him in for case loads. 37:16 I've read his books, actually, yeah. 37:17 And... Yeah. 37:19 I was needling him for him. And, you know, Alan is retired. 37:22 Poking him. 37:23 He's retired. 37:24 Yeah. But I'm sure he has friends. 37:26 Yeah. But he was, he just said, I said, like, I mean, what do you think? Like, you know, he says, well, he wouldn't comment on. 37:34 Oh, yeah. Sure. He doesn't want to give away. 37:35 You know, he can't. And even though he's retired, he still knows the, you know. 37:40 The party line. What to do and what to say and what you can't say. But what he did say was they wouldn't be doing these digs unless they had really good and reliable information. 37:52 And just because they don't find something doesn't mean that it's not there. Like you're talking about, you know, people seem to think, and I'm kind of like that, they're talking about maybe a car or a vehicle or even a container. And you're like, surely to God they'll find something that big. But when you're talking about you know, acres and acres of ground. 38:12 And all you need to be is like 100 metres off, maybe. Yeah. Or that little bit up there isn't being tested, you know. And like, because I remember they were doing, remember there, was it in November 24 or 25, they did a dig on that farmland looking for Jojo. 38:30 And I remember looking at the maps and the area where the field that they were in, just directly behind that, there seemed to be like a forest area or a load of trees that to me didn't look like they were old enough to have been planted. 38:45 You know, like 100 years ago or 50 years ago, they looked fairly young, you know. And I was kind of going in my head, kind of going, would they not think now like that maybe if she's not in that field, that those trees are actually younger than this case and that maybe they should kind of just go back that, because it was literally right next, the next field over. 39:08 Yeah. Yeah. But unfortunately, it's not. That's not how it works, obviously. It's not that simple to say, right, lads, we're going to go this way. But you have to. 39:16 They have it all mapped out. It's all mapped out. 39:18 And then you're talking about permissions to go into certain grounds and warrants and stuff like that. So like to do those digs, they'll be very much laid out where they're digging and whatever. And if you go outside those remits. 39:32 You're in trouble. Yeah, you're in trouble. 39:33 It won't stand up, yeah. So they have to be very careful. Yes. So let's just hope that they continue going. But like what we were saying earlier. 39:42 Well, they're obviously working on it, aren't they? 39:44 Yeah, it's like what we were saying earlier. It's keeping these people's names out there. 39:48 Yeah. 39:48 You know. 39:49 And just because we're not hearing, like, because I used to be, before I started all this, I used to be kind of getting flustered. I'd be like, there's nothing about such and such person in years. Like, what's going on? And then suddenly there's this big, like, that, oh, we're doing a dig. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of after, like, thinking like you know they're obviously working away in the background they're not going to be briefing the press about every move they make you know until and then when they have it and they're ready to go then like you know but these things take time it could take six months a year I know you say take time some of them have been 30 years 35 years in the offing now but like I suppose they're using more modern methods now as well you know and it is harder to solve an old case and it is harder I suppose when you have like All of these cases, you could say, that we're talking about in the vanishing trial, we have no bodies. 40:38 That's right, yeah. 40:39 And if you have no body, I mean, no crime scene, more than likely, you know, so they're kind of coming at it from a very sparse place, you know, to begin with. 40:50 Yeah. But like that, you just don't know what's coming around the corner. No. 40:55 You could find out tomorrow. Even if they just find one of them, you know. 40:57 I mean, I want them to find them all, but just find one of them. It might start a knock-on effect. 41:02 Yeah. 41:02 I would certainly hope that, you know, I'm what, I'm 50, 54 now that, you know, I do live to see. 41:08 You're a young fella, John. 41:09 But I do live to see some of these cases. 41:12 Yeah. 41:12 You know. 41:13 Because they're our generation, you know. 41:14 Yeah, yeah. 41:15 And we kind, you know, and I just feel like, you know, we, we deserve, not us personally. No. But our generation deserve to know what happened to these people. 41:24 Yeah, and it's like, again, I'm harping on about who we had on and all these in a row. But you're the only person we've had twice. But anyway, we had Geoff Knupfer here a couple of months ago who headed up the commission to locate the remains of the disappeared. 41:39 Oh, wow. You know, the people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 41:41 Paramilitaries and like that. 41:44 The work he was doing was outside of criminal crime scene investigation. It used the same techniques, a lot of similar techniques or whatever, but they were coming at it from the point of view of, we just want to find these people. 41:56 Just find them, yeah, yeah, yeah. 41:58 And in that respect, they probably had more freedom to do certain things because they weren't going to be trying to prove a case in court. In court. 42:05 And I wonder would that be a way for some of these to go... Yeah. I know, again, you're down to do they want justice? 42:12 But like... Yeah. 42:14 Do you want justice or do you want to find them and lay them to rest? 42:17 Yeah. But then again, you see, unfortunately, with the disappeared, you were talking about one or two parallel military organisations, predominantly one. And... Those people were coming forward with information being told that, you know, you're not going to get prosecuted and that was fine. And it led to, I think, there's only one or two outstanding people left to be discovered. But with the likes of Jojo and Deirdre and one or two others and like that, you know, you mightn't be talking about one individual that's going to come forward and say, well, I'll give you information if you're not going to prosecute me. 42:53 That's not going to work. No. But Jeff had said, like, you know, like that, even with cases that are so old, just never give up. 43:01 That's what I'm saying. When you were literally saying that there about the disappeared, that's what I was thinking. Like, they got, you know, as you said, bar two, they found them. So there's still hope, like, you know, even though we're going on, as we said, three, four decades now, there's still hope out there that some of these poor girls, even if they're just found, you know, and I know some of their parents are gone and you know, or enterly now. 43:28 Even if you're only talking about a handful of one or two individuals that are responsible for some of these disappearances, nothing happens in a vacuum. Somebody's going to have a doubt about them or some sort of information that just might be that bit that tips it over. 43:45 Absolutely. And you'd wonder then sometimes, is it, you know, like, especially I suppose down the country, you've got smaller kind of, it's more parochial in a sense. Are people more afraid to come forward because it's such a smaller pool, like, you know, that they don't want to be finger pointed at, like it was Johnny over there that rang the guards, you know what I mean? 44:04 Yeah. 44:05 Like, is that a reason why people would be afraid to come forward? 44:08 I don't know. I don't know. 44:11 There could be some of that in it or maybe just, I don't know, fear or fear of repercussions or something. 44:18 Or fear that because it's gone on so long that they would get into trouble for not having come forward then, which is totally untrue. Yeah. You won't get into trouble. No. 44:26 And that's why, again, I think, and I know you'll agree with me, bringing those cases, as well as the more up-to-date cases, you know, speaking about more recent cases in the podcast, but going back and talking about the older ones, or ones that people maybe aren't overly familiar with, but there's no reason for them not to be, you know... 44:52 Spoken of. Spoken of. Yeah. In the same detail as the more recent ones. 44:56 Well, absolutely. Like, you know, because I suppose when you think of, especially the older, like the Mam Trasna ones or Shandy Hall or any of them, like, they're almost like fictional characters because they're so old now. You know what I mean? They're 150 years old. 45:11 You know, so you don't actually kind of, even I was finding myself like that. You're not actually even thinking of them like they're real people that were alive like us, had a pulse like us. You know, that they're just like a Sherlock Holmes character almost. 45:23 Yeah. 45:24 But they were real people. They were. Like if you go down probably to the cemeteries there, you'll find their graves there. You know, they were real people. 45:31 Yeah, I haven't gone there yet, but I've Googled Earth and fucking, excuse me, my friends. 45:37 But street viewing down there in that locality and all the little highways and byways and boardings and roads, they're not really used anymore, but the stone walls are still there and you can make them out. And you know where the cottage was in the Mount Traston one. 45:55 And it was so remote. That's what amazed me. Like, you know, now we just get into a car or like you're in Dublin in an hour or two hours. You know what I mean? Whereas this place was so remote that it took like two days or whatever, you know, to get to the next village over to get the guard. Well, it wasn't the guard, but you know, to get the 46:14 Yeah, and of course, no electricity, nothing like that. 46:17 And obviously had no shops, you know, back then. So everything was, you know, you grew your own, sure, hence why there was a famine. You either grew your own stuff or you starved, like, you know, like it was a completely different Ireland to the one we're living in today. 46:31 But in some respects, not that different because like what you were saying about maybe people not coming forward with information, down there you had all of these families that were interrelated either through marriage or through blood in different ways and did different factions and people wouldn't, you know. 46:47 Yeah. 46:48 You know, and, you know, that very much led to the wrongful convictions of some of the people. 46:54 Only for two of the guys here actually said, and they actually said that he was innocent. 46:59 Yeah. 46:59 But, you know, I think, again, it was all the mix up with the language and all that. It just, or maybe it was just because they were, I don't know, back then, you know. 47:09 Well, it was, you know, the view of the Irish by certain... That's what I was trying to say that politely. ...of, you know... Yeah, society. Society, shall we say. Yeah. But very important to keep these cases alive, regardless of the... 47:25 Absolutely. And, you know, bring them to a new generation. Yes. You know, even like if somebody was listening to it, you know, that is only in their 20s. 47:36 Yeah, but I mean, you and I would have gone through secondary school and would have been taught Peg Sayers. Oh, God. 47:43 Sorry, you know by the reaction there. That kind of says it all. 47:47 And it was soul-destroying stuff. 47:50 You just ruined my day there, John. 47:52 But would it not be equally important to speak about stuff like Mam Trasna or other cases in our history? So much more. In that neck of the woods, from those times. And it would also bring in, you know, the whole stuff about... 48:09 And it would bring in like, you know, the whole stuff about language barriers and stuff like that and make it more real. 48:15 Yeah. And kind of real stories behind the famine era and all that. And like, you know, you could tie them in. I'm sure there's ways of tying them in to everything. 48:22 But we'll do our best anyway to keep, you know, keep the stories right regardless of their age or whatever. 48:30 Absolutely. A hundred percent, John. Yeah. 48:32 Well, Newell, we could talk here for Ireland all day and it's been absolutely fantastic having you up again. And I look forward to our next chat. 48:41 Yeah, we'll definitely. As I said, I might get you on to Ireland Crimes and Mysteries. 48:45 Absolutely, absolutely. And listen, thanks very much. It's always a pleasure. 48:49 John, sound as a pound, as I say. 48:51 I wish you continued success with Ireland Crimes and Mysteries. 48:54 Same to you. I love lines of inquiry. Thanks very much. 48:59 Keep doing what you're doing. 49:00 I'll do what I'm told. 49:01 Because you're doing great. 49:02 You do what you're told. 49:05 Okay, well, thank you for listening to this episode of Lines of Inquiry Case Notes. 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