00:00
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00:40
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01:29
Delighted to be joined this week by Lise Hand and Shane Coleman. Later we're also going to be talking about the new biography of former Taoiseach Brian Cowan, which has been written by Gary Murphy. Gary is a guest on the subscriber edition of Path to Power, which will be available from Sunday, talking about that book. But we will actually play a little brief extract from it and have a discussion with Lise and Shane about that as well during this edition of Path to Power. We're also going to be talking about the Ireland football team playing against Israel in the very near future now, and that's developing as a political story, I think, on the back of what's happened with Ed Sheeran this week as well.
02:09
We'll be talking about the assault on Michael Healy Ray and the dangers for politicians. And we'll also be talking about Metrolink, which seems to be accelerating finally towards the start of its construction. But we're going to start with last weekend's story, Donald Trump coming to Ireland, and having a rare old time between Dublin and Doombeg. But there were a few laughs, I think, to be had out of it. Hollow laughs, perhaps. And where I laughed was, well, a couple of things. When he went for the United Ireland line, which nobody had expected, and I suppose I laughed at the idea, There's Sinn Féin outside the Phoenix Park protesting about the arrival of Donald Trump.
02:51
Dreadful man, as he is. And then suddenly, oh, he's actually come out in favor of the thing that is most important to us. It was, wasn't it? It was.
03:01
It was completely ironic. And, you know, it should be noted that there was, you know, a noticeable delay in Sinn Féin kind of reacting to it. It was sort of, you know, we noted first before they kind of got their act together. I mean, everybody was on the back foot over that. And I thought it was interesting. I think it might have been, it was one of the Sunday papers, might have been in the Mail on Sunday, who were explaining that Trump had actually brought this up with Catherine Connolly.
03:31
It was the Irish Mail on Sunday.
03:32
It was the Irish Mail on Sunday. But I thought the word he used was really interesting because he asked her about, quote unquote, the merger.
03:39
So... sees everything in business. So quite obviously they got out the chalkboards and they kind of said, OK, this country over here, that's, you know, did a hostile takeover of that country over there like 800 years ago.
03:53
And probably actually put it in those terms because I thought it was the maddest word to use. So this obviously fired up his newfound interest in Irish reunification. I mean, the gags are obviously going around. I mean, Clare Hanna, the SDLP leader, you know, came out with a cracking line about him, you know... Not being as orange as he looks. Not being as orange as he looks. And then the meme was going around to Trump at his podium with a black balaclava on going, who knew he was that kind of Republican? So, you know, it did, you know... The reactions, of course, were instant.
04:24
I mean, Q outrage among the DUP, Q what I believe was silent outrage in government buildings.
04:33
They just could not believe he did it.
04:35
Sorry, that was the second bit that I thought was funny. It was when he turned on and essentially told Micheál Martin, you're the man to get it done. when the last thing Leon Martin seems to want at the moment is to accelerate towards a united Ireland.
04:47
Exactly, exactly. And, you know, like getting an endorsement from Donald Trump is like getting, you know, the confidence of the dressing room, isn't it really? It's, you know, it's not really what you want. So... I mean, yeah, I just just like you, Matt, there was moments of that. I just put my head in my hands. And, you know, that moment when he when he announced, you know, taking the tariff of Irish whiskey.
05:10
And I mean, he's such a maniacal narcissist that he couldn't even allow Shane Lowry his few minutes of glory. He had to butt in on that. And then the crowd all, you know, start cheering. But I mean, lads, it was him that put the bloody tariff on in the first place. So, you know, he's basically saying, I'm taking off the tariff.
05:27
And the tariffs exist in all the other exports we have beyond whisky.
05:31
Yeah. And I mean, look, the whole, it was all about showbiz. That sort of flyover by the Qatari force one over the thing. Surprised he didn't chuck a few toilet rolls out, you know, the window to the natives before he landed. I mean, the whole thing was just absolute showbiz.
05:45
Yeah, I mean, it was, but doesn't it show the importance of always being in the tent as opposed to being outside the tent? I mean, look, Trump is an appalling figure.
05:55
He has few redeeming features, but he is the president.
06:00
Name one redeeming feature. Sorry, there's no redeeming features.
06:04
You're right. But... He is the President of the United States. He wields enormous power. We saw that in terms of the tariffs. We saw it even in terms of the comments on Northern Ireland, which we obviously talk about a bit more in detail. But you need to talk to him. You need to... I mean, it's...
06:24
it's a bit unseemly at times it's cringy it's awkward but you do need to talk to the man and you need to promote him and that was a success regardless of what way you look at it last weekend was a success for Micheál Martin and I think Sinn Féin need to reconsider this thing of being outside the tent. I think most Irish people actually get that. I think they abhor Trump, but I think they get the pragmatic politics.
06:49
Catherine Connolly was the absolute example of that, wasn't she?
06:52
And fair play to her, though. She got her couple of little digs in, you know, with the poems she gave him and all that, but...
07:00
St. Bridget's Cross. St. Bridget's Cross, yeah, yeah. You know, the patron mother of Ireland.
07:04
That had just gone completely over his head.
07:06
Completely over his head.
07:07
Oh, that was for the home. She was playing to the home crowd on that one.
07:09
But she did her job.
07:11
Yeah. But Shane, you're right about the whole thing about being inside the tent. I mean...
07:15
You could probably argue that how Sinn Féin actually ended up inside any tent at all was courtesy probably of Bill Clinton when he issued the visa back in 1994 for Gerry Adams to travel to the States, which really set in motion a string of events because I think some people inside Sinn Féin have talked about how it brought about this change because they could see what it was like to be inside the tent with the power rather than inside the tent just chucking rocks at it and how the real business is done when you are in there.
07:50
So, yeah, so Shane is right. You know, you do have to be inside the tent, but...
07:56
You see, the trouble is, like, the tent is a circus marquee because you've never, and you have no idea what, you know, the chief clown is. And there's no safety net. And you're there juggling knives and, you know, bottles and everything.
08:07
Yeah, so it was a circus and we were part of the performance as well as been the audience for it. But it did strike me, you know, one of the funny lines as well when he came about the Irishman, vicious bastards.
08:19
Yeah.
08:19
And, you know, that was clearly meant as a compliment, you know, rather than a criticism.
08:23
Yeah.
08:24
But it did strike me. I mean, there's other ways you could describe us as well. And you could say that we are deceptive bastards and devious bastards in the way that we actually plum-ost them, while at the same time behind his back going, what an eejit.
08:39
Yeah you're completely right but what is the alternative to playing that game I don't see an alternative we are so dependent on the US for our economic model for our taxes I'm sorry. We've made our bed. We have to lie on it.
08:55
There was also a letter to one of the newspapers, which I thought was actually telling as well, making the point that a lot of these people... He has supporters in Ireland. You know, there are some people who like him and stuff. And I think if you did a Venn diagram, they'd probably cross over with the protesters about the price of fuel that went out earlier in the year.
09:17
They might, yeah.
09:18
Yeah. I think they might. And you'd also then wonder, well, why weren't these people protesting down in Dumbaga, Dublin? Because he's the one who's responsible for the price of fuel at present. I know you can argue, oh, well, it's the government taxes and all the rest of it. But it's government taxes on elevated price of fuel because of Trump's idiotic as well as immoral attack on Iran.
09:43
Couldn't agree with you more. Couldn't agree with you more. And, you know, while, I mean, genuinely, there was massively amusing sort of sides to this and all this.
09:52
I mean, the last time that he was down in Dubeck, I covered that trip. I wasn't on this one.
09:58
But I have to say, I, probably the question that I would have thrown at him, and I think it's the big unanswered question, and I think it's the one that will stain his legacy forever, is when are they going to apologise for the bombing of Minab, the school in Minab?
10:15
140 schoolgirls?
10:16
There was 120 schoolgirls, 156 people.
10:20
It was, without a doubt, it was a US tomahawk. A UN report into it has just been published to say that the evidence is pointing towards it was a US action. And it has never been acknowledged by the
10:36
They'll never apologise for it. Trump doesn't apologise for getting things wrong. He never admits to getting things wrong. So he can't admit to it, so he won't apologise to it for it.
10:44
You see, I think that that's the classic failure of this. He just sees power as strength and doesn't understand that you have to step up and apologise for things when you get things wrong as well. So, you know, while I, probably like everybody else, I eye-rolled and I did laugh at times at the shenanigans down there, Like that to me is the thing. Every time I look at him, I just literally see that. That's what I see every time I look at that man. I see that shadow of that school bond and that really striking image of all the corpses lined up, you know, all the coffins lined up.
11:19
No sooner has he left the country than we discover that he's selling... Well, 2.4 billion worth of bombs to Israel. I mean, what they're going to do with these bombs as well when we get to Israel in a little while. But this is just another example of where Pramos and the guy for the reasons that you're explaining, then he goes back off and he does things like that as well.
11:40
It's an uncomfortable position. Can I go back to the point you were making about the protesters, the fuel protesters? Because the Business Post had a poll last weekend, a political poll, but one of the questions it asked was, would you support further fuel protests if the price of fuel continued to rise? 66%, two-thirds of the electorate said they would. I mean, I have to say, I saw that finding and went, we're screwed as a nation. Because, I mean, first of all, to go to the point you were making, Matt, who are they protesting against?
12:12
Are they protesting against, because the reason the price of fuel is going up is because of this crazy war in Iran, because of Donald Trump.
12:18
It's going up because of carbon taxes and excise and vac chains. It's nothing to do with the base price.
12:22
That's what they would inevitably say.
12:25
And then the next question is, okay, so the government has thrown 100, is it 100 million euro a month at this to try and, so...
12:32
Do they double that? Do they treble it? Like how much?
12:36
Because even on this podcast recently, we spoke about me and Martin talking about the two euro per litre price been breached. Yeah. And we were saying it was only last week. Actually, two euros a litre is probably going to be a floor rather than a ceiling. And the Irish Daily Mail reporting on Thursday that there is no expectation $2.50 could be the price of a litre of diesel very, very soon.
12:59
So does the state keep subsidized? And if so, at what cost? I mean, the Dáil was recalled in early September. over the price, basically, of a cup of coffee on a full fuel tank. That is some signal for the government to say. Like, normally when the doll is recalled, I mean, you can remember the good, I mean, you were probably writing about it at the time, Matt, the Goodman international crisis and the doll was recalled for that.
13:25
Thanks for making me feel very old. Sorry, Matt. Thanks for going back to 1990. Can I just say I was in college at the time?
13:32
But normally that's a national crisis basically and we were called it all for the price of a cup of coffee. That sent out a signal from the government as they did in April that we will do whatever it takes to insulate you from a war and that's a crazy situation for any economy to be trying to do. We're chasing a war basically.
13:54
Well, yeah, I mean, it's just before we sort of leave the whole Trump thing. I mean, everything to do with Irish politics is enmeshed with a lot of the Trump things now. That's the trouble. I mean, economics via tariffs and so on, rising costs, rising price of fuel, which feeds into cost of living. And now, of course, him deciding to put his foot into the whole reunification argument as well. And, you know, I know today as probably as we're here, Micheál Martin is travelling over to Manchester to meet Andy Burnham.
14:27
Two men who do not want a referendum in the north of United Ireland.
14:31
I know. I mean, you'd kind of like to be a fly on the wall of 10 north, 10 down or 10 north, whatever they call it. I've actually looked at the building. It's fairly unprepossessing.
14:41
I presume intentionally so. though, is it?
14:43
Oh, definitely. I mean, it's just a prosaic looking office block.
14:45
Working class, you know, nothing fancy here.
14:48
No porticos in sight, you know, and so it's sort of, it's a very up north kind of building and, but you know, they will have, you know, because obviously Micheál Martin was hosting Trump last week and then, of course, Andy Burnham was hosting Mark Carney and Mark Rutte, the NATO Secretary General in the last few days. So they'll have a lot to talk about, but they are two men who do not want to have to deal with the issue that Trump has literally lobbed like a scud onto the table.
15:16
So Neil Martin just sat there when he was being suggested to him by Trump that he was the man to lead the merger.
15:25
But then on Monday we had Sinn Féin meeting with the leaders of the nationalist parties in Scotland and Wales not in their capacity as leaders of the devolved governments, but in the capacity of leaders of the particular parties, pushing again very much for this thing, the breakup of the union. And Michal Martin, down at the Plough in Championships on Tuesday, I think, accused Sinn Féin of raw mesh, wasn't it? Do you know what? He was right.
15:55
Why was he right? He was completely... I could not... It's the stupidest strategy. It's a daft strategy. Right.
16:01
What's wrong with it? Why are you fighting a war on three fronts?
16:04
Fight a war on one front. Like there is absolutely... Divide and conquer.
16:08
Divide and conquer. Force the British government to have to deal on three fronts rather than just one.
16:14
There is zero chance of Wales parting from the UK at any chance.
16:19
I can't afford to. It just isn't going to happen. They felt it overwhelming for breakfast.
16:25
There's no popular support for it. Scotland is a different case. Maybe that will happen at some point in the future. I'm not convinced they had a referendum already.
16:33
2014 wasn't it?
16:34
Sinn Féin should be focusing on United Ireland, not breaking up a union as in the United Kingdom. The irony is, if there was a referendum on a United Ireland in England, it would be passed overwhelmingly. Absolutely overwhelmingly.
16:49
They'd actually be shot of us. Yeah.
16:51
Can we say the same about Ireland? No, we can't. Why are we making England the enemy?
16:56
That's nonsense. Reform have come out, and much to some people's surprise.
17:01
Reform. They're a busted fluss already. Do you think so? Yeah, I do. I hope you're right. Sorry, if we're playing the politics of reform, then we really are in trouble.
17:09
No, but they want to defend Northern Ireland, defend the union.
17:11
Sorry, Britain is not the obstacle to a united Ireland. Unionism is the obstacle to a united Ireland. And going off and dallying with the Scots and the Welsh nationalists is going to do nothing to change. It's a daft strategy and Micheál Martin was right about that.
17:25
Yeah, I mean, I think Shane's right about the poll because I think if, I mean, if you think the population of Northern Ireland is 1.9 or something, I think it represents 3% of the population in whole of Great Britain, UK. So, And yet it's costing, what, 10 bill a year or whatever the hell it is to actually keep the place running. Of course, you know, I would imagine a poll over there would say, yeah, be sure to them.
17:49
Give Ireland back to the Irish, as Paul McCartney sang.
17:52
Give Ireland back to the Irish and let them pay for it. So, you know, it's... And Shane is also, I actually think he's correct as well.
18:01
There's a big difference between what, say, Wales, the First Minister of Wales and Scotland are looking for, which is breaking away, essentially looking for succession, whereas reunification is reunification. It's that Northern Ireland comes into the Republic.
18:17
It has to break away from the Union first.
18:19
Yeah, but it's got a home to go to, so to speak, if you know what I mean. It actually has a home to go to. It's reintegration. But I think the two lads today are going to have to sort of open the bottle of 10-year-old Jemmy that's probably going to be under the oxter of Michal Martin when he turns up today. And they are going to have to start the conversation. Tariff-free. Tariff-free, exactly. But they are going to have to start that conversation.
18:41
And I understand where Michal Martin is coming from with his shared island initiative that he wants to build slowly. But two things do strike me in relation to that. One, Leo Varadkar sitting in the studio a few weeks ago when he was here with Conor Murphy, Sinn Féin, making the point that these things can actually happen very, very quickly. I mean, Germany is the example of that. You know, reintegration took place in less than a year from when it was first mooted after the fall of the Berlin Wall. And sometimes events and momentum suddenly develops out of nowhere.
19:11
So that's one thing. The second thing was Paul Howard actually who said it when we did about his book and when we did the special Path to Power podcast, that there are more immigrants now living on the island of Ireland than there are unionists, which is an extraordinary statistic.
19:28
It is.
19:29
It is, Matt. And I know where Leo Radker is coming from, but Germany is a very different case. You did not have a big chunk of the East German population who hated, who mistrusted West Germany. You just did not have that. Most people in East Germany wanted to be part of Germany. Like, Miel Martin gets a lot of flack for, and I think you're right to say you understand where he's coming from, he gets a lot of flack for the Shared Island Initiative. He's the only, I would argue, he's the only political leader in the South over the last five years that actually has a strategy. You can disagree with that strategy.
19:59
Simon Harris will have one in November. Yeah, he will. He will.
20:02
And where is that going to be? I mean, you've That's right.
20:05
Mary Lou MacDonald has a strategy. The most important thing for her, beyond housing, beyond the cost of living, beyond immigration, her key thing is a united Ireland.
20:13
That's not a strategy, though. That's a goal. And where's the strategy to bring it?
20:18
She's been trying to get the other political parties to engage in it.
20:22
Rushing the referendum is not the best way. And my big fear about all this, and look, I think Micheál Martin has shared on the initiative, I think events have overtaken us. I think there's no doubt about that. I mean, when you get Ivana Bacic describing herself as, what was it, a Connollyite Republican. I mean, Ivana Bacic, of all people saying that, then you know
20:41
What does that mean? You see, I say there's people who are well versed in history, you know, but again, is this show a little bit of an out of touch? The vast majority, 99% of people are going to say, Catherine Connolly?
20:55
Seriously, they're not going to understand the reference.
20:58
You go to a lot of, you know, if you go to a lot of those concerts now with them.
21:01
They all know who James Connolly is.
21:03
You get a lot of James Connolly from the stage at these festivals and stuff.
21:07
And you and Bohemians, actually, they're big James Connolly lovers and bows as well, aren't they?
21:11
There is a bit of that, all right. But I do, what I worry about, and look, I'm someone who would love to see United Ireland in my lifetime, but the idea that you can press gang unionists into it, I mean...
21:23
I think we're playing a dangerous game. Nationalists were press ganged into a six-county state. And look how that worked out.
21:29
I mean, do we want to go back to... I heard a councillor from the north dismissing these kind of concerns, saying, war is over, we're never going back there.
21:39
Can we be certain? You can't be certain.
21:41
I think we need to tread carefully and I think we need to make, I think we need to go down this road because it's inevitable. It's coming.
21:48
Yeah.
21:48
But I think we need to move cautiously and slowly.
21:51
True. I think caution slow, but I think also provide clarity and certainty to a certain point as well, you know, where you can, as in, agree maybe at this stage, today he could go into Andy Burnham and say, okay, when you said off the table, can you actually describe to me what was your thinking behind that? Do you mean never? I don't think Andy Burnham meant that. I don't think he did either.
22:14
I think Andy Burnham just meant in the two years that I know I have as British Prime Minister.
22:19
It's gone into the narrative now, right? It didn't matter what he meant. This is now the kind of the sort of accepted belief that he meant off the table. So I think if you can get, you know, the Taoiseach can get clarity on something like that. Like, Just explain what you meant.
22:34
How do you see a timeline play out? What would be the conditions under which you think that a border poll would actually have a good chance of passing?
22:45
How can we prepare for this in terms of discussing integration of various things? Who's going to foot the bill? Will the European Union give us a dig out during the changeover? What would be the role for Stormont afterwards? You know, I think... How you start the conversation isn't by flag-waving and standing there kind of going, we want the breakup of the UK or Great Britain.
23:10
You start the dialogue by the practicalities. I mean, that's always the way. You take the steam out of it. You take the heat out of it by dealing with the nuts and bolts of it. So... Michael Martin's fairly level-headed. He knows that Trump has landed him in the doo-doo. I mean, he knows this and he's, you know, he's literally metaphorically blown up the Shared Island initiative or given a route up the backside and now, you know, it's sort of saying you have to speed up. But Mary, you know, Mary Lou MacDonald saying things to the Taoiseach like you need to get your finger out, you know, which, you know, and get on with it.
23:41
I mean, that's not really the sort of, you know, the language is needed now.
23:45
Okay, speaking of Mary Lou MacDonald, we have recorded already for this podcast for Sunday week, Siobhan Fenton, who is our former press advisor, who has written a book about inside Sinn Féin over the five years running up to the general election in November 2024. And that's going to be available to subscribers on Sunday week.
24:08
But this weekend we have Gary Murphy about his book on Brian Cown.
24:14
Brian Cown, who, as I wrote about for the Business Post for this weekend, probably in history the worst Taoiseach we ever had. And I was one. Can you think of a worse one?
24:28
Yeah, I don't... Can I think of a worse one?
24:31
Can you think of a Taoiseach who signed the bank guarantee? Who also left us with the Troika taking over our economic sovereignty?
24:40
I take a slightly different view on it. I think he was probably the worst minister for finance we ever had.
24:44
Oh, believe me, I've said that as well. I actually think...
24:49
And I actually think that government was drubbed out of office in 2011, not because it created the mess during the Celtic target years, because it had to bring in all the cutbacks. I actually think the things they did between 2008 and 2011 were the right things to do.
25:07
I think they were drubbed out of office.
25:09
For that reason, but I think also it was punishing the Fianna Fáil party, Fianna Fáil party, for all the things they had done during the good years as well. I think it was a...
25:18
I disagree.
25:19
But I, no... Can I put a scenario to you?
25:21
If Fine Gael... Let me just put one scenario to you and then, sorry. If Fine Gael had won that election in 2007, which they very nearly did...
25:30
They came so close. The Labour vote collapsed on them, yeah.
25:34
I'm telling you, in 2011, Fianna Fáil would have roared back to power. They would have been roared back to power.
25:39
I don't disagree with that. I really don't.
25:40
So does that not suggest that they were punishing them for what they did to rescue the situation?
25:45
I think it was both. I think it was both. I think there was, because if you look back at that time, It was very clear that an awful lot of what happened, some of it was, as actually Brian Cowan, if I remember, used the memorable phrase, a confluence of events. I think it was around, you know, some of it was international pressure, you know, international forces. A lot of it was homegrown. And the connections were made very much to where the genesis of this was. I mean, you know, you could argue that when the Rainbow Coalition left office, they left the economy in decent shape.
26:18
before the first Bertie government came in. So you had a Taoiseach that I think was, you know, a clever man, but I think that he was temperamentally not a good fit for the job of Commander-in-Chief Taoiseach.
26:37
I think that he had a wee cabinet.
26:40
The drinks cabinet, as it was known.
26:42
Well, there was a drink.
26:44
That's a bit unfair in a lot of the members of it. Very unfair.
26:49
No, no, no. I think that's a valid statement. But, you know, so I think...
26:53
I think we should say for the record, many people in that cabinet were not big drinkers.
26:57
Absolutely. Absolutely. Actually, yeah, they had a few, they used to call them choir boys, I think, you know, choir girls that wouldn't touch the drop. But, Yeah, I think that we weren't well served with the government that we had. And I mean, I was very deeply, I was on the front line of all the coverage around that time. I was working out of Leinster House. So I really had an up close and personal look at how that whole, how the bank crisis started, how it unraveled.
27:29
of a distinct memory in when the Dáil was going to recess in 2008 or 2009, the opposition pleading for them to stay in power or to stay sitting because it was quite clear that there was awful things coming down the tracks. And the government were like, ah, no, it would be grand. And I think that was literally where the, you know, the construction industry suddenly, you know, disappeared. And there was a few years, Matt, when it got very scary. And you were, you really felt like we were hurtling on a, you know, along a track on a train that had no brakes.
28:08
There wasn't a great feeling that anybody was particularly in charge of what was going on.
28:12
And I have to say it, I remember people saying to me when I was reporting at the time that they actually felt a little bit of relief the night when the Troika and the IMF came in.
28:22
Well, I'll give you a couple of things. I have to first say, for those who are watching on YouTube, I'm actually wondering do I need to stop the recording now because Shane has taken off his tracksuit top. He's wearing a Bohemian's jersey, but it's got a sponsor's name right across, which just happens to be that of a major drinks company. And these are the things we're supposed to protect. So you're going to have to fold your arms over the name of it.
28:43
I'll put my top back on. And it just happens to be the drink that I actually, you know, I inhale on a regular basis.
28:51
And I think Brian Cohn did as well, right?
28:55
I'll tell you what, I just put my notes over for the whole thing there.
28:58
So I just... Okay, I think actually the point you make, Lise, is a really good one about, you know, how people were at the time. I think that's why, and in the podcast I've done with Gary Murphy, we do discuss at length the issue of Brian Cohen's use of alcohol.
29:16
And he denies in the book that it was ever a problem while he was a minister or the Taoiseach. And I have seen him on occasions drinking to excess during his time in politics.
29:28
But we all, I suppose a lot of us were complicit in remaining quiet about it. But I think what was different about the Ardalan in October 2010 and the Morning Ireland interview the following morning was it was a time of deep crisis. People were scared about whether they were going to be able to make their mortgage repayments, whether they were going to lose their job, that they saw all of the assumed wealth melting away on them. And here was the guy who was supposed to be leading them out of the mess on the piss.
29:59
Yeah, I mean, I was there. He told Gary Murphy he only had a gin and tonic and three pints. Well, oh, for YouTube listeners can see Lisa's eyes widening at the idea of that one. But the point is, even if it was only that, and I suspect it was more, you know, he shouldn't have been in the bar until three in the morning. That's not what people expected at the time.
30:20
No. I think that event, on the face of it, and any other year when the economy wasn't, and the country wasn't in such a powerless state, that would have passed without any notice whatsoever.
30:36
But as you rightly say, people were really scared. And There was genuine fear in the streets. People were walking around their towns and their cities and seeing shutters go down on shops.
30:47
I remember covering things like the bank EGMs and people who, you know, sitting in the audience crying their eyes out because their pensions had gone up in smoke. There was a feeling really of... Great fear. And so when Brian Cown did that interview, did sound, as they said afterwards, congested, quote unquote.
31:06
I think it tapped into people's, as you say, anger that here was somebody that really wasn't, you know, stepping up to the mark, you know, when where he should have. And if I, yeah, it sort of, it unleashed that intense period of instability that followed the Ardalan. I mean, the Ardalan wasn't just a once-off event that people were angry about. And then it precipitated like an internal almost heave against him.
31:37
And it was Brian Lenehan, the finance minister, that saved him because he was seen as the man who could maybe take over the job. And Lenehan backed him. at a public press conference to sort of calm that down. But then very quickly, all the talk started about the IMF coming in.
31:52
Yeah, but sorry, I think at this stage, people also realised that Brian Lenehan wasn't in a condition where he could have taken over. And this is something I want to play a little bit for this. I came to the conclusion belatedly, I have to admit at the time, I didn't think it true enough, but that The nature of Brian Lenehan's illness, which was disclosed at Christmas 2009, that he had come down with pancreatic cancer, one of the most serious cancers with the lowest survival rates possible.
32:24
And which requires a very, very difficult treatment and also leads to quite a lot of exhaustion and pain.
32:33
And I think that at the time, Brian Cohen should have required Brian Lennon to step aside as Minister for Finance, as somebody else. And I've said this afterwards, Mary O'Rourke got very, very mad at me. The late Mary O'Rourke, I remember she came to me at an event where I was and she absolutely lit into me for having said this. I think it was in the TV documentary that was made. She's a great woman for doing that, yeah. And I stood my ground. And first, what I have to say for Mary O'Rourke was... She did it and she got it off her chest and that was it.
33:05
And then she moved on. Classic Mary work. So let's just hear a little bit of Gary Murphy on that particular point when I put it to him in this podcast.
33:15
He did ask him, was he able to do the job? Ryan Lennon said he was able to do the job. And Brian Cohen said, I'm asking you, not just are you able to do the job, but will you be sort of fully committed to it? He told me he wasn't swayed by this argument that some people have that if he didn't continue as Minister for Finance he would die very quickly because he would sort of lose the will or the drive he told me he certainly wasn't that wasn't that wasn't a factor in his decision making but I think to their fundamental point of this criticism, that the Kishuk at the time drank a lot, put it like that, and the Minister for Finance was terminally ill at a time when you had an extraordinary sort of confluence of events where the state was at risk.
34:07
The state was at financial risk, and it wasn't just at financial risk, it was at what I would call social risk, simply because if the banks had run out of money or if we hadn't done the Troika deal that there could have been severe social dislocation like there was in Greece for instance. So I do think there is an issue there and I think it was probably a mistake certainly by Brian Cohen. He'd admit to many mistakes but he won't admit to that mistake.
34:34
Okay.
34:35
You're both looking pensive there. I'm not sure what you're going to say.
34:39
Well, yeah. Now, again, I'm relying on memory on this one. But I seem to recall around the time that he took over as Taoiseach, he was interviewed by Brian Dobson on the 6-1 show.
34:54
And I think Brian Dobson sort of obliquely sort of said, you know, will this new job mean you'll have to instigate lifestyle changes, I think might have been the phrase used. This is to Brian Cowan.
35:05
To Brian Cowan, which is sort of a euphemism, obviously, for... We were all dealing in euphemisms back then.
35:10
We were. But also then do also recall that we are under the cosh of massively strict libel laws and defamation laws. So there is that element as well. Yes. But I seem to recall that Brian Cairns' answer was, you know, I don't really see any great need to change the way that I, you know, I operate.
35:29
He was visibly shocked by the question.
35:31
Yes, and I think he was quite rattled by it.
35:34
But I think that possibly a period of introspection might have done him no harm at all, because you're taking on a job at the best of times. You've a thousand things on your desk.
35:45
Nobody is denying that he was, you know, a clever, able man who could absorb information very quickly. And we knew he was quick on his feet, you know, when, you know, in the Dáil and so on.
35:58
But to take on the job and then take over the job at a time when the country was literally teetering on the brink. And let's not forget that when he took over, he embarked on a kind of a, you know, a victory lap around Offaly as well. That, you know, went on. I covered that as well.
36:17
Swelling pints off the back of a lorry down in Clara.
36:19
Yep, exactly. So I don't think that really is necessarily sent out, you know, the best message. And at that stage, we were already slipping into bad odour in the EU because, of course, one of the first things I think he had to deal with was the knocking down of the first Lisbon Treaty, which was knocked down. So we were already starting to be bad Europeans. That was before we started doing things like bank guarantees and so on in the middle of the night. So I think from the word go, I don't actually think that he grasped that he had to be, you know, take on a statesman like demeanour, behave like a wartime leader at a time of basically financial, you know, jeopardy.
36:59
And I don't think he ever really got his head around that.
37:02
I don't entirely disagree with that. And I think Brian Cowan was always better as a number two than a number one. I'm not sure his characteristics, his personality suited being Taoiseach. But I would go back to my earlier point. I think, like, Lisa, we're relying on memory from a long time ago. And a lot of it, I think, we've tried to almost block out because it was such a traumatic time. And we, you know, I lost my job in the middle of all that. The Sunday Tribune closed. I mean, and, you know, I was one of maybe hundreds of thousands that happened at the time.
37:31
But I go back to my earlier point. The problem wasn't what happened between 2008 and 2011. Yeah, I agree. The problem was what happened before. And I know this is going to be, most people will not agree with me. I actually think the actions taken by the two governments between 2008 and 2014 or 2015, Fine Gael and Labour after it, I think they essentially did the right things. We can quibble about the bank guarantee and should it have been as extensive as it was, but we were never going to be able to burn bondholders.
38:03
We had, despite what people said at the time, and people talk about austerity and all that, we had to cut back on spending. Those decisions were made and they were the right decisions and they ultimately saved the economy. And yeah, we needed the bailout as well. But I actually, I don't look back at that government and say... They made loads of mistakes. I think the mistakes were well in advance of that. And I think Brian Lenehan, my recollection of him at the time, I think he did a decent job as finance minister. That's my recollection. I know not everyone agrees with that.
38:33
There were times when he wasn't there to do it for the very understandable reason that he was having treatment or that he was taking long naps in the office.
38:42
And look, I think people liked Brian Lenehan and they thought he was very brave and courageous to continue in the job while he was suffering from the illness and I wouldn't take that away from him at all. But the reality was the situation was so serious and Gary put it well there as well. So you had a Taoiseach who, although he will deny it, was having an issue with alcohol use and he didn't stop drinking when he was Taoiseach. And you had a Minister for Finance who was fighting a terminal illness.
39:15
You know, surely. And I think Common probably didn't want to be seen to force Lenehan out.
39:20
But it probably would have been quite a backlash if he had. It would have been.
39:23
Yeah. But I think it probably would have been the necessary action. Yeah, perhaps. Okay.
39:28
But I think he wanted to see it through. I mean, there was that, there was that image of him. I don't know where it came up. Do you remember him? I think he was just going to, going to, in the airport, going to Brussels and the snow outside. And I thought it was a metaphor.
39:42
He says that he's looking and saying, this is disastrous. This is going to, this is awful.
39:46
Yeah, I think that metaphor always stuck or that description always stuck with me as, you know, it was wintry in every single sense of the word, you know.
39:53
But I stand by this though, Matt, absolutely. The decisions made that time and decisions made by the substandard government saved the economy. And a lot of people in the media opposed those, strongly opposed those. It was the wrong thing to do. And it wasn't the wrong thing to do.
40:07
Look, I think the thing about the bank guarantee will, people will take, still take sides on that. Some people think it's, you know, it was the right thing to do. Some people think it was the wrong. I think decisions made behind closed doors in the middle of the night are never great.
40:19
Have a listen to the interview of Gary Murphy. Yeah, I will. Absolutely looking forward to that. And the book is great. Your quote was quite a bit in the book as well, at least, from your writing.
40:27
Excellent shows I was there.
40:29
I'm not quoted at all.
40:31
I don't know, you might be. You're quoted. I'm quoted, but I don't know if you are, Shayna. Okay, we need to take a break. We're way past the time when we should have taken a break and we've lots more to talk about, such as the attack on Michael Healy-Ray, the Irish team playing football against Israel and Metrolink, all of that to come when we come back after the break. Today's episode is brought to you by The Greenman Group. It's answering a critical question, how to invest in a sustainable future in real, tangible terms. Its answer lies in three areas – the energy transition, the places we live and shop, and the future of our food supply.
41:08
The Greenman Group's strategy is to own and operate the physical infrastructure in these sectors, from solar energy generation and EV charging, to agricultural projects and grocery-anchored real estate. By building, managing and optimising these areas via its investment and operational businesses, the group aims to build resilience and deliver long-term value. Explore its approach at thegreenman.group Welcome back to Path to Power. Shane Coleman Lease Hand with me this week.
41:38
Michael Healy Ray, serious incident. Now, we have to be careful because we have to describe this for legal reasons as an alleged assault, although he was taken to hospital and he did receive stitches for injuries. Also reports about the individual who was arrested on Thursday evening and his family background. Middle-aged man, odd walking the dog, apparently identified because he had a highly distinctive dog.
42:06
A case of the dog not being the man's best friend, isn't it? Indeed.
42:11
Sorry. But I suppose a few things in relation to this. Michael Healy Ray has had people... There was a video last year of Danny getting abuse in Temple Bar from fans when he was going to a GAA game.
42:26
And it's not just the Healy race. There's so many politicians. Siobhan Fenton has written about threats to Mary Lou MacDonald in her book.
42:35
Coins landing on her head when she was... That was Siobhan Fenton herself.
42:40
Yeah, herself, yeah. Micheál Martin, somebody was arrested in trying to get to him at the Ploughing Championships on Tuesday. His own constituency office in Cork has been dobed with racist graffiti. there's a whole range of stuff that has been going on. There have been so many women in politics over the years who've been, you know, taking abuse online. I think Jennifer Carle MacNeill brought complaints which led to...
43:07
There's a long, long list, Lisa. Yeah, well, actually, even speaking of women, I was just looking at some notes here and like a study that was published a couple of months ago that was conducted by Women for Election, the Oireachtas and the Task Force for Safe Participation in Public Life found 96% of female politicians had suffered abuse online, 70% had received threatening or abusive direct messages on social media, and 35% said they had received demeaning or sexually connotated images.
43:39
On the back of this Michael Healy Ray story, the Independent just listed out some of the things that had happened. You had a government minister who sent an anonymous letter telling them they would receive, quote unquote, a bullet through the head. Various ministers, including Helen McEntee, have had hoax bomb threats called on their homes.
43:59
Herself and Simon Harris have had to evacuate their homes. And these are also politicians with small children.
44:05
Exactly.
44:06
Some have been, TDs and senators have talked about how they've been followed repeatedly, blocked from leaving events, threatened with violence and targeted online by damaging false claims about themselves and others. Another major report to Gardaí when graffiti said, that said, shoot a TD appeared in their hometown. Like the list, and that's only, you know, a bit of it. Like the list goes on and on and on to the extent that The Independent is also reporting that I think it's 60 TDs and senators have received enhanced security measures in their homes.
44:40
Now, there's a few points I'd like to make about this. The first is when I was working as a political journalist, I spent an awful lot of time in, say, election campaigns or at events out on the hustings with particularly, say, TDs and so on.
44:55
The vast amount of the time, the interactions were absolutely and utterly normal. They were people coming up that might have an ask or they might genuinely be upset about something. And there would be a possibly lively, but, you know, an exchange of views. The TD would listen or the Taoiseach would listen and whatever and go about their merry way. And that's very much how Irish democracy works. It's very much grassroots, community based. People like to see their politicians out and about.
45:22
You will, but I have also seen the nastier encounters as well. And that's because our TDs and our politicians are very much out there in the community and this sort of stuff happens.
45:33
But there is a huge line between people who are come up and exercise their democratic prerogative to have, you know, talk to the public representative about something that's worrying them or angering them.
45:45
and hurling, dogs abuse, sending threatening letters, abusive behaviour, that is nothing to do with speaking power to democracy. That is absolute just thuggery and abuse. And there's nothing heroic about that.
46:00
I think the real worry is that at some point in the future, Matt, we are going to be talking about the... I mean, what happened, obviously, what happened to Michael Healy Ray was often not in any way underplaying it. But that we're going to be talking about a politician who is really seriously injured or worse. I mean, we've seen in the UK, we had the case of Anne Whittacombe not that long ago. We've had MPs who have been... Joe Cox, David Amas. Yeah. The real fear. Something changed and going back to, I think we can probably date it from the crash and the anger.
46:32
And...
46:33
Well, you could also say the internet and social media. I was going to say social media.
46:38
Social media is definitely an issue.
46:41
Because you see some of the stuff online, and I'm sure you got it at your radio show in recent days. People started thinking, good enough for them.
46:50
I just cannot get my head around people who would say that. I can't understand it.
46:55
Just as an aside, lots of people then caused issue with Michael's son, councillor Jackie Healy Ray, been out condemning it because he himself has a conviction for assault which took place in Ken Mayer back in 2017. But the point I made in relation to that is, well, actually...
47:13
He was actually charged and properly convicted and there was an appeal and the conviction was upheld. And doesn't that actually show the good thing about the way the law works in Ireland? In that even if you are a councillor, even if you're the son of a prominent TD, it won't actually stop the due process going ahead.
47:34
That's a very fair point. I would just make one other point. I wonder, is some of it down to the nature, the coarsening of political debate?
47:43
I think in the last 15 years, I think debate has become a lot more personalised. The language is a lot heavier. It's politicians going at each other in the Dáil a lot more. A lot of screaming and roaring. That's a good point. And shouting. And I'm not sure that is helpful.
48:00
No, that is actually a really good point. And you often hear Keane Corley kind of going, look, lads, you're on the television here. Would you simmer down?
48:06
What happened to Verona Murphy when she was being elected, Keane Corley?
48:09
Exactly. I mean, the mad scenes that broke out there and the aggression. That was an embarrassment.
48:13
And some of the language used, like people being called tossers in the Dáil and so on. I'm not suggesting there's a direct link between those events, but I don't think it's helpful. I really don't.
48:25
OK, let's move on. And how unhelpful is it that the Irish football team is playing against Israel twice in the coming weeks? And I was surprised that every player made themselves available. The squad announced on Thursday for these two games and the games against Austria and Kosovo as well. over this next three-week period. And I suppose what brought it to attention again this week was when you see Bioga, who is a support act or the backing band for Ed Sheeran, deciding to abandon Ed Sheeran's tour in support of Macklemore, who has been censored for his Free Palestine comments.
49:05
And when you also saw Aaron Rowe, I think was the name, wasn't it, of the support act, You know, who showed tremendous courage, I think, in sort of backing out of that, given that it was, you know, a great opportunity for him. I'm sure a financial cost to him as well not to go ahead. But when you see that happening and when you see Ireland yet again not taking part in the Eurovision Song Contest next year and not showing it, you know, why would football be different? And Shane, I'm interested in Europe particularly because you are there wearing your... Bohemian's jersey and your Bohemian's tracksuit top and I know you're off to watch Bowes and Dalymont Park this evening.
49:43
You'll have seen them by the time most people hear this.
49:46
But you know what it's like amongst the Irish football base, particularly the League of Ireland base.
49:51
Do you think has this been handled correctly? Because I thought initially just moving the match would be enough, playing a behind closed doors somewhere else, the home game. But Given all the things that we have been learning more and more about Israel in recent weeks, and given the attention which has now also correctly been focused on the West Bank as well as Gaza, and all of the breach by Israel of UEFA's and FIFA's rules, if you just take it at a football level, before you talk about genocide and forced deportation of people, why are we playing this country?
50:23
We wouldn't play Russia, so why are we playing Israel?
50:26
Because Russia were kicked out by UEFA and FIFA and that's what should have happened with Israel. I mean, we know Israel have broken UEFA's rules. They should have been turfed out and the FAI took that case to UEFA and there's no interest in it.
50:43
Look, maybe it's not a popular view. I don't see the benefit of Ireland not playing these games. I actually think it could backfire. I think if other countries were willing to partake in a boycott, I would support it, absolutely.
50:58
Like the way that other countries are now bringing in sort of similar occupied territories built to us. Yeah.
51:03
I think there's absolutely... The strength in numbers. The strength in numbers. I really, really believe that. But if Ireland don't play Israel in these two games, Israel gets six points, it makes it a lot more likely that Israel will qualify for the finals.
51:18
And could end up having to play here in 2028.
51:19
Could end up having to play here.
51:21
I don't see the benefit of Ireland taking this down. We'll lose both games. We may get other penalties. It will change nothing. You mentioned the Eurovision boycott. I mean, there was a lot of talk at the time when Ireland pulled out the Eurovision that loads of other countries would follow suit
51:37
It hasn't happened. And let's be honest. There's been a few who have Spain did. Iceland did a few.
51:42
Yeah, at the same time. But no one else has done it and it hasn't made any difference. So I think the FA are putting an impossible position on this and their job is to do what's best for Irish football. I think if other countries were joining in, absolutely. Without that, personally, I don't see what the benefit of it is.
52:02
Yeah, I mean, I think it's striking when you kind of look at things like press conference surrounding this. And, you know, normally when the Ireland team are going into any kind of campaign, you know, it's upbeat and there's lots of sort of gaiety and jollity about it and whatever.
52:16
A year ago, Troy Parrott and all those goals.
52:18
Precisely. And now it's just so grim. It's just people say we have to get through this. Everybody from the members of the FAI, the squad.
52:30
God, I feel very sorry for the players. I feel incredibly sorry for the players. I mean, the pressure on them. I mean, what if they were to lose both games 3-0 anyway?
52:38
After all of this? I mean, well, that's the thing. And, you know, I think the games are going to be very grim. I think both sides would probably want to kick the living shite out of each other for a start. So I think they could actually be dirty games. And also, let's not...
52:52
It's going to be the issue of the handshake beforehand as well. The handshake beforehand. The manager has said that they're going to discuss this once they've got the Kosovo game out of the way. But remember all the fuss that the Israelis caused about the Irish women's basketball team not shaking hands before a game and then claiming that this was anti-Semitic and all the rest of it?
53:10
I think there's going to be lots of that sort of, that kind of sort of psyops going on before, or sight games playing on before. And And also, just to add to the wrinkle, I mean, you know, the irony probably isn't lost on anyone that the second leg on October 4th is in Serbia. And of course, they're in absolute terrible odour at the moment because obviously for the lionisation of... Back to their fascist, racist crap that they... Because back to, I mean, the funeral of Ratko Mladic, who is a convicted war criminal and their defence minister, Serbia's defence minister and justice minister were there, carried to the streets.
53:41
And sorry, this also brings back 1999. Ireland didn't play a game against Serbia for those very reasons. I'd forgotten that. Because the government, the government stepped in and told the FAI not to play the game. And the government.
53:55
The game was played a few months later. It was.
53:57
Things changed in Serbia. But that didn't stop them initially saying, no, we're not letting the Serbs come here.
54:04
I still come back to the question, what will be gained by this? And I mean, there's going to be a huge focus on handshakes and so on.
54:14
I think the Austria game now could be an issue because I suspect that there will be Irish fans who will protest at the Austria game. They might do the tennis ball things to protest the fact that Israel have been played in Hungary and that they will be played again in Serbia the following Sunday. I think that's potentially a flashpoint as well.
54:34
I don't understand the logic I don't understand the protest at the Austria game I really I don't and that's not to in any way downplay what is happening what Israel have done is appalling they should be booted out of international football they have broken UEFA's rules but boycotting this game or not playing this game will change nothing
54:53
Well, I mean, it is, you know, it just goes to show the, and I think it is a gathering strength of feeling. I mean, you look at sort of the three stories, you look at football, Irish football, the Eurovision and the Ed Sheeran controversy in the States.
55:09
And they're all swirling around Gaza and the absolute and utter depredations that have gone on there.
55:17
This story has sort of grown and grown. I mean, you know.
55:20
I do think the Ed Sheeran story is different.
55:24
Well, I don't necessarily think it is that different.
55:27
Well, it's also about free speech.
55:29
It's about having the right... Yeah, but it's free speech hinged on free... I mean, the two words essentially kind of, I suppose, tip this over where you're right, it is about free speech, but it's hinged on Macklemore going free to Palestine and singing about Gaza. So... You know, the wellspring of this, but you are right, it is completely about free speech. I mean, you have a situation where the stadium, where this particular concert took place, the Gillette Stadium in New Jersey, is owned by Robert Kraft, who has paid millions into AIPAC over the years.
56:04
You know, Benjamin Netanyahu has called him the greatest friend Israel could have.
56:10
He was the one that literally pulled the plug on, you know, insisted that Mac and Bobby dropped from... Ed Sheeran should have told him to get stuffed. Ed Sheeran totally should have told him to get stuffed.
56:17
He said, no, sorry, I'm standing by my... He's done nothing wrong. I'm standing by him.
56:20
I mean, they're mates. I mean, you know, that's the point as well. And I saw, you know, one person put the point of view that, and I think it's a valid one, that kind of Ed Sheeran tried to do the cake, sort of, you know, the bit of cake-ism there. So he could maintain his so-called quote-unquote neutral stance and let his pal take all the flack and kind of make it political.
56:41
At worst, he was saying, it was nothing to do with me, it was the promoter. I thought that was ridiculous.
56:46
I am not complicit. I thought that was so weak.
56:49
And now he's after throwing 2 million in to support, and Forrest Craft has given 2 million towards the Palestinian cause as well. Well, they said causes in the region, which I think is very interesting. Yeah, but you can imagine where the money will end up going.
57:02
You can imagine where the money ends up, but this is bad for him. And I think, as somebody pointed out, he's going to be touring, he's probably, his next tour will be in Europe, where, you know, where its feelings are even more febrile on the issue of... Ed Sheeran. Ed Sheeran, yeah.
57:15
Well, it depends on where in Europe he goes. Well, this is true too. A lot of them will support Israel no matter what. I just think, I just wonder when we'll be then, as I said to Marion on Wednesday's pad to par, you know, I wonder will Ed Sheeran never appear to fly in Ireland again?
57:30
Well, and do you know what though? I mean, I feel uncomfortable about that as well. I think Ed Sheeran got it wrong. But Ed Sheeran is not the enemy. Ed Sheeran is and this kind of witch hunt against him now that is inevitably going to follow I'm not sure that's a good idea I'm not sure that's healthy and I'm uncomfortable with all of that he got I think he got this wrong spectacularly wrong But he's not Israel. He's not the problem.
57:56
He'll survive this because, you know, it's not his fan base aren't necessarily massively politically motivated. They want to go and hear love songs and, you know, he's a pop act in a way. And I'm not denigrating saying, oh, people like Ed Sheeran have no political opinions. But he's not seen...
58:10
You know, he's not in that sort of space where he goes out on stage, you know, swayed it in flags or whatever. And I think he tried to insulate himself from having to do that. And don't forget, this is a guy who, you know, has actually expressed political views. You know, he was anti-Brexit. Yeah, he was very critical post-Grenfell, Ukraine and so on. So to sort of step out of these waters, I'm not complicit. Yeah, sorry, Ed, you know...
58:38
OK, listen, one other thing I want to ask you about. It does seem that we are accelerating towards the beginning of the construction of Metrolink. And there are people giving out that it's going to cost up to 17 billion. And a lot of people think it'll cost more. And a lot of people believe it will take longer and it won't be ready in a decade's time.
58:58
And, jeez, I think just get on with it. Because for...
59:03
Who can remember how much the Lewis cost? Who can remember how much the Port Tunnel cost? You know, and if we didn't have those, we'd be completely and utterly shagged. I was in Japan in August, and geez, it was brilliant. Now, I know the cities of Osaka and Tokyo are way much bigger, but my God, been able to travel around on the undergrounds that they have, moving around freely. I mean, to be honest, if anything, I just think maybe the Metrolink we're putting in isn't ambitious enough.
59:34
I would love to see loads of additional lines like we actually had been thinking of 25 years ago.
59:41
Yeah, I think bring it on. I think I totally agree with you. And I mean, you know, in fairness, like the kind of Mike Flynn, who's the interim director, he more or less said now or never, there'd be no cheaper time. And he's probably right there. He's definitely right there. I mean, you know, the longer the wait, the costs are only going to take up. And yeah, I agree with you. I remember the chaos, you know, the madness around the city when they were building the Lewis. I mean, I, you know, fell into a few holes in the city centre after dark more than once.
60:12
I mean, the place was, you know, up in a heap. But the end result was fabulous, you know, and we have this great service, particularly since they actually joined it up. Of course, that made a big difference. And this really is what we're talking about, is joint up thinking. So, get the show on the road, get it started. I know they put a team in place or an organisation in place to oversee the project and they keep on saying this isn't Children's Hospital 2.0 because people will not get paid until it's operational, not just finished, but actually operational.
60:44
So...
60:46
the costs will be set in and people won't get their fair share.
60:51
I mean, obviously, they're paying for some things up front.
60:53
I can't imagine anyone would do it on the basis that they'd only get their payment in 10 years' time.
60:58
Yeah, but maybe it's like, you know, when you have somebody in pain in your house, it's half now, half, or whatever. So, you know, look, they say it's going to transport something like 53 million people a year or something on it, which is a staggering number.
61:14
So yeah, bring it on. Absolutely.
61:16
I'm a little less convinced than you guys. I mean, on a personal level, I hope it goes ahead because my house is about 500 metres from one of the stops.
61:23
But I hope your house, when the tunnelling is going on, that your foundations are not... It's far enough away. I'm not worried about that, Matt.
61:28
I'm in the sweet spot.
61:31
But I worry about the cost and inevitably when you're digging holes in the ground, I'd be amazed if it didn't end up in the 20s. And what could you do with 20 billion? I mean, you could do a lot with 20 billion. You could build a lot of Lewis lines for 20 billion euros.
61:48
Sorry, they won't be built for 15 years because there's no planning permissions in place. Sorry, you know what I would actually argue, and I know you're going to look at me and you're going to roll your eyes, I'd be doing those Lewis lines as well as doing the natural. And I think there's absolutely essential investment.
62:03
We need a Lewis line to dunsink if we're going to develop that huge... huge area that should be developed that we can maybe have, what is it, 30 or 40,000 homes there. So I agree with that. I am a little nervous about the cost. And do we have the population density? I mean, is it 20 or 30,000 an hour each way? Do we have the population density to justify that? It's also, it's one line. It's not going to be transformative. It just isn't going to be transformative.
62:28
But if you don't have it...
62:29
Yeah, look, I can see the argument. I'd love to see the cost-benefit analysis. I'd love to see that in detail. Has it been done in detail?
62:36
Oh, God, you see, this is the argument, the type of argument that'll put it back another couple of years.
62:42
We've been through the arguments. We have done the arguments.
62:45
Are you seriously saying that we should spend 20 billion euros without doing a cost-benefit analysis?
62:49
The cost-benefit analysis has been done. Well, has it? I haven't seen much detail. Oh, yeah. Look, we went through this countless times and it's been countless.
62:58
Look, I've been writing about it for 25 years. Yes, so have I, Chase. Two billion was the cost when I was first writing about it and Mitsui, the Japanese company, offered to build it.
63:07
God, if only we'd allowed them.
63:09
Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't disagree with that.
63:12
But we can't change what we haven't done. But the longer you put it, even the fact that the cost-benefit analysis done in recent years has actually increased the costs by delaying things.
63:23
Yeah, look, it's going to happen. It is going to happen. And you're probably right, once it's built, like the Children's Hospital, once it's open, no one's going to be talking about the cost of it. So maybe we should go ahead, but it's a whack of money. It is a big whack of money. Okay.
63:39
We will leave it there. Did I mention that we have Gary Murphy on the Path to Power subscription edition podcast? I think you'll enjoy it. And as I said, Siobhan Fenton the following week. And of course, we have Marian McKeown every Wednesday as well with Path to Power America. My thanks to Lee Sand and Shane Coleman for being with us and to my production team. So until the next time, from me, Matt Cooper, thank you for being with us.
